Those of you reading know that I'm a pattern-detector. I notice and catalog correlations and make predictions, guesses, and hypotheses about people. Two patterns/correlations interest me most. Almost every day, I get more evidence that these correlations are correct. That does not mean that "every single X is correlated with every single Y". I am not making that claim.
The borderline mother correlation is really fascinating. I think you're on to something. On your podcast I think you also mentioned the correlation between gay men and BPD in general. Seems like one could hazard a guess at causation there--functional personality disorder (traits if not full-blown disorder) as a result of borderline parenting style.
Thanks for the like, recently, on my (admittedly) long comment, very few caps, sorry to hear you are getting drama. I do not get women who don't defend motherhood. I dealt with those mothers as a Kindergarten teacher. One of them sat across the table from me (vice president at Random House) and told me, "You expect me to quit my job!!" when I told her that her son says he wants a home lunch, that would make him happy and he'd try to stop punching his classmates and giving them bloody noses. (risking disciplinary action required by NYCDOE). "Jesse" was jealous, in that gentrified nabe, of the kids who come with non-gluten bread and organic peanut butter sandwiches in their Hanna Anderson cloth lunch boxes. When you are a teacher like me and you have been baking bread for your fatherless sons, making extra sandwiches for them to share in the cafeteria, because of a different kind of jealousy, you decide this lady will learn in about 10 years when the kid is 15, doesn't come home at night and they don't know where he is, despite the very up to date smart phone he's just been given. They will learn, maybe I should have packed him a lunch with a note saying, "I love you, Jesse. From Mom"
Many heterosexual men I've dated have narcissistic mothers. They were very not gay. I had to deal with criticism based on the resentment. Those relationships didn't last. My sons no longer talk to me because I refuse to call their father a woman. This has actually produced the same all caps (You TRUMPER YOU) reactions. He was a man. I met him when I was 18, young, naive, and I guess, pretty. I am really, really glad I'm with this great guy, a widower, who worked summers (teacher) and afterschool to get his daughter through college with no loans. We have that in common.
One thing I hope you will do, Josh, is be open to male and female detransitioners in the next few years. There will be an army of them. Women like me have been mostly silenced. I know several.
Be sure to take breaks from the twitter and wherever else you get the all caps. It was a 5 significant butterfly day in my garden today. Those moments are sacred.
Ute Heggen, gardener and author, In the Curated Woods
From my limited, rather detached observations at 66 years old…generally speaking… I think gay males are born that way, not caused by their parents to be homosexual.
Former Kindergarten teacher here…you know how the majority of people are born right-handed? Previous generations would expect left-handers to ignore their biology and write/cut/sew/hit at bat with their right hands, causing lifelong awareness and adaptive behaviors. Perhaps you know older people like that.
I recall Dominick Dunne’s observation that a homosexual man like him (social group and age) was expected to marry a woman. (What heartbreak for both!)
I have two step-grandsons from the same family unit. Their father has been the always dependable, always accepting, always supportive parent. The gay son can see that his mother has made a mess of her life but is still drawn to comfort her and look the other way. He’s the one his mother brags about on Facebook. The not-gay son holds Mom at arms length…
I think birth order, an individual’s personality, the family’s personalities, etc. are part of the mix. My soon-to-be ex-stepdaughter-in-law is a hardcore narcissist who treats people like crap. She didn’t cause her son to be gay but perhaps relies on his sensitivity of being different to cause him to be sympathetic to her turmoil. I don’t know.
Rather than causation or correlation, I would say there may be a connection, as in an emotional affinity, between a gay son and his chaotic mother. I don’t know.
I have also noticed these correlations for over a decade and I have kept my mouth shut because of the amount of attacking that happens to people who dare to notice and then verbalize something like this. I do not believe most homosexual people are born that way. I believe they are made by trauma. I am simply tired of being attacked for daring to notice. Glad to be a supporter of others that are speaking out.
You must analyze a woman who has a crush on gay GENTLEMEN - like you and Andrew Doyle! No, I'm just kidding. I'm married, LOVE my husband, he is the best in the world. But I just adore guys like you and Andrew, how extremely smart and sophisticated you are... :) That's why I decided to become a founding member! (PS. Will you please interview Exulansic?) Thank you!
Can we add Douglas Murray to that cadre of fine gentlemen? His RP accent and scathing turn of phrase are just the most exquisitely cutting combination when unleashed upon an utterly deserving opponent.
Jul 25, 2022·edited Jul 25, 2022Liked by Josh Slocum
I think those of us who were born more than 30 years ago, probably grew up with an inkling that there might have been some correlative relationship between gay men and either clingy or domineering mothers, but it's only recently with people such as yourself who have really shone a light on the BPD world, that I personally have had the opportunity to re-examine that dynamic from a better perspective. It still feels like something that one would be aware of, yet never really want to bring up because it simply wasn't the "done thing".
In our current climate, being straight and discussing such a thing is still somewhat verboten, because we've moved into the realm of protected classes and exalted castes, of whom nothing can be said without the prerequisite qualification of actually "belonging" to said categories. It still feels like something I shouldn't have any right to speak about, which is ridiculous because we're all a product of our raising as much as our genetics and it shouldn't be seen as taboo to want to understand both ourselves and others, regardless of whatever potential stereotypes such investigations might reveal.
As someone who once thought themselves to be part of the left, I know I too fell into a stereotype: that of being an annoyingly pedantic arsehole when it came to atheism. I was too eager to be "that annoying atheist" type who was at times, unflinchingly cruel to those with whom I found myself disagreeing. I can admit that I was unnecessarily smug in my wanting to have that "gotcha" moment and often refused to see the person behind the beliefs. But I guess age and time and maybe the good fortune of having had the opportunity to interact more with people on the right - as my own politics became more conservative, like so many of us over the years - I learned to be...well...less of a dick, lol.
I've also changed my position on other issues like 2A rights, abortion (I used to be almost completely "pro-choice, but now think that there is a more ethical position to take in having a cut-off point around 14 weeks - largely because of the yet to be developed cerebral cortex and lack of viability at that point) and no longer thinking in terms of everything LGBTQ+ being a positive catch-all grouping (these days I see no connection between LGB and the T; or any of the other myriad terminologies that get lumped together under an ever-expanding flag).
So yes, I see that I was once probably one of your annoying types as laid out above. I'm not saying I'm not annoying now (you only have to speak to my long-suffering better-half if you want to know just how much of a pain in the arse I am to have to live with on a daily basis) but I've definitely grown up a lot in the past 20 years. Now if only I could learn to leave comments that weren't as long as - if not longer than - the content I'm responding to; maybe one day. In the meantime, thank you for all you've done to help me learn so much more about the 'Cluster B' world. If knowledge is power, then you might just be enabling me to to one day take over the world.
The borderline mother correlation is really fascinating. I think you're on to something. On your podcast I think you also mentioned the correlation between gay men and BPD in general. Seems like one could hazard a guess at causation there--functional personality disorder (traits if not full-blown disorder) as a result of borderline parenting style.
Thanks for the like, recently, on my (admittedly) long comment, very few caps, sorry to hear you are getting drama. I do not get women who don't defend motherhood. I dealt with those mothers as a Kindergarten teacher. One of them sat across the table from me (vice president at Random House) and told me, "You expect me to quit my job!!" when I told her that her son says he wants a home lunch, that would make him happy and he'd try to stop punching his classmates and giving them bloody noses. (risking disciplinary action required by NYCDOE). "Jesse" was jealous, in that gentrified nabe, of the kids who come with non-gluten bread and organic peanut butter sandwiches in their Hanna Anderson cloth lunch boxes. When you are a teacher like me and you have been baking bread for your fatherless sons, making extra sandwiches for them to share in the cafeteria, because of a different kind of jealousy, you decide this lady will learn in about 10 years when the kid is 15, doesn't come home at night and they don't know where he is, despite the very up to date smart phone he's just been given. They will learn, maybe I should have packed him a lunch with a note saying, "I love you, Jesse. From Mom"
Many heterosexual men I've dated have narcissistic mothers. They were very not gay. I had to deal with criticism based on the resentment. Those relationships didn't last. My sons no longer talk to me because I refuse to call their father a woman. This has actually produced the same all caps (You TRUMPER YOU) reactions. He was a man. I met him when I was 18, young, naive, and I guess, pretty. I am really, really glad I'm with this great guy, a widower, who worked summers (teacher) and afterschool to get his daughter through college with no loans. We have that in common.
One thing I hope you will do, Josh, is be open to male and female detransitioners in the next few years. There will be an army of them. Women like me have been mostly silenced. I know several.
Be sure to take breaks from the twitter and wherever else you get the all caps. It was a 5 significant butterfly day in my garden today. Those moments are sacred.
Ute Heggen, gardener and author, In the Curated Woods
From my limited, rather detached observations at 66 years old…generally speaking… I think gay males are born that way, not caused by their parents to be homosexual.
Former Kindergarten teacher here…you know how the majority of people are born right-handed? Previous generations would expect left-handers to ignore their biology and write/cut/sew/hit at bat with their right hands, causing lifelong awareness and adaptive behaviors. Perhaps you know older people like that.
I recall Dominick Dunne’s observation that a homosexual man like him (social group and age) was expected to marry a woman. (What heartbreak for both!)
I have two step-grandsons from the same family unit. Their father has been the always dependable, always accepting, always supportive parent. The gay son can see that his mother has made a mess of her life but is still drawn to comfort her and look the other way. He’s the one his mother brags about on Facebook. The not-gay son holds Mom at arms length…
I think birth order, an individual’s personality, the family’s personalities, etc. are part of the mix. My soon-to-be ex-stepdaughter-in-law is a hardcore narcissist who treats people like crap. She didn’t cause her son to be gay but perhaps relies on his sensitivity of being different to cause him to be sympathetic to her turmoil. I don’t know.
Rather than causation or correlation, I would say there may be a connection, as in an emotional affinity, between a gay son and his chaotic mother. I don’t know.
I have also noticed these correlations for over a decade and I have kept my mouth shut because of the amount of attacking that happens to people who dare to notice and then verbalize something like this. I do not believe most homosexual people are born that way. I believe they are made by trauma. I am simply tired of being attacked for daring to notice. Glad to be a supporter of others that are speaking out.
You must analyze a woman who has a crush on gay GENTLEMEN - like you and Andrew Doyle! No, I'm just kidding. I'm married, LOVE my husband, he is the best in the world. But I just adore guys like you and Andrew, how extremely smart and sophisticated you are... :) That's why I decided to become a founding member! (PS. Will you please interview Exulansic?) Thank you!
Can we add Douglas Murray to that cadre of fine gentlemen? His RP accent and scathing turn of phrase are just the most exquisitely cutting combination when unleashed upon an utterly deserving opponent.
Isn't Andrew great? Douglas Murray, too, as Bex says below.
Thanks for your generosity:)
Exulansic is extraordinary!
I think those of us who were born more than 30 years ago, probably grew up with an inkling that there might have been some correlative relationship between gay men and either clingy or domineering mothers, but it's only recently with people such as yourself who have really shone a light on the BPD world, that I personally have had the opportunity to re-examine that dynamic from a better perspective. It still feels like something that one would be aware of, yet never really want to bring up because it simply wasn't the "done thing".
In our current climate, being straight and discussing such a thing is still somewhat verboten, because we've moved into the realm of protected classes and exalted castes, of whom nothing can be said without the prerequisite qualification of actually "belonging" to said categories. It still feels like something I shouldn't have any right to speak about, which is ridiculous because we're all a product of our raising as much as our genetics and it shouldn't be seen as taboo to want to understand both ourselves and others, regardless of whatever potential stereotypes such investigations might reveal.
As someone who once thought themselves to be part of the left, I know I too fell into a stereotype: that of being an annoyingly pedantic arsehole when it came to atheism. I was too eager to be "that annoying atheist" type who was at times, unflinchingly cruel to those with whom I found myself disagreeing. I can admit that I was unnecessarily smug in my wanting to have that "gotcha" moment and often refused to see the person behind the beliefs. But I guess age and time and maybe the good fortune of having had the opportunity to interact more with people on the right - as my own politics became more conservative, like so many of us over the years - I learned to be...well...less of a dick, lol.
I've also changed my position on other issues like 2A rights, abortion (I used to be almost completely "pro-choice, but now think that there is a more ethical position to take in having a cut-off point around 14 weeks - largely because of the yet to be developed cerebral cortex and lack of viability at that point) and no longer thinking in terms of everything LGBTQ+ being a positive catch-all grouping (these days I see no connection between LGB and the T; or any of the other myriad terminologies that get lumped together under an ever-expanding flag).
So yes, I see that I was once probably one of your annoying types as laid out above. I'm not saying I'm not annoying now (you only have to speak to my long-suffering better-half if you want to know just how much of a pain in the arse I am to have to live with on a daily basis) but I've definitely grown up a lot in the past 20 years. Now if only I could learn to leave comments that weren't as long as - if not longer than - the content I'm responding to; maybe one day. In the meantime, thank you for all you've done to help me learn so much more about the 'Cluster B' world. If knowledge is power, then you might just be enabling me to to one day take over the world.
Stay spicy!
Bex