I am a married women and I support this message. It’s true. I have seen this terrible behavior on the part of women, especially younger women. I find it repulsive and embarrassing to our gender. I cringe every time see it. I worry about the damage being inflicted on good men.
You continue to be my personal role model for courage, friend. For the benefit of your readers -- not you, with whom I have these conversations in private -- I will add something. I spent about two years hating every human male as hard as I could. Every single goddamn one. I was so angry at what my father had done and failed to do, and what his pedophile drug dealer had done, and I turned it into an indictment of half of humanity. And I reveled in it. I was proud of it. I wasn't healthy enough to just be angry at the specific men who deserved it. Nor was I brave enough to confront them, adult to adult. So I stewed in my fury and generalized it to all men, everywhere.
I don't regret that time. I think I needed it. I needed to spend years consciously experiencing my anger, to get some practice in the notion that I was human and therefore what happened to me was wrong and I was allowed to be angry. I had no ability to hurt anyone with physical or other power (I was nobody's mother, employer, etc.) so in some ways this was actually harmless, but still -- it was toxic.
And you know what? Nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- ever gave me any pushback. Nobody but one friend knew the details, but that didn't matter. Men who understood it had something to do with my childhood just nodded, accepting my anger as righteous. Other women either treated me neutrally or egged it on (about half and half -- I ran in circles that skewed to damaged, leftist types, so I'm surprised the egging-on proportion wasn't higher).
Men with a similar history of being deeply wounded by women who might similarly need a period of anger don't get that option. There's no equivalent.
So yes, there are plenty of asymmetries that suck in one direction -- it drives me nuts how often men on social media get angry at me for expressing my emotions (as if their anger isn't, itself, an emotion) -- but there are plenty of asymmetries that go the other way.
And some of them, like this one, are profoundly unfair.
The irony, of which I'm sure you're aware, is that none of these reactions of women to men's criticism or insight into their behavior would be effective *if men truly were indifferent to the pain and suffering of women.* If your point was, "I hate women and therefore I wish to cause them pain and distress," such a response would be gratifying, not distressing.
But that's why reversal works - specifically *because* they know that most of society is more self-aware and emotionally vulnerable, and that mentally stable men have an inherent, instinctive desire to protect women.
Like Holly, I also had to spend some significant time experiencing my anger towards men. I think it was a good thing that we didn't get pushback. We needed that time. Anger is a part of grieving(and we all have reasons for serious grief) and should be allowed as such. However, like you, Holly, and others have said- men are not allowed that, and it's usually women (who should be the ones sympathetic to this need) that try to prevent it.
While I know there are some men out there who view anger itself as morally wrong (that's my not-all), it is usually women who operate in that mode. Women do not stop and consider all the times anger has been a motivating force for good and righteous behavior. If the anger we have allowed ourselves to feel and articulate helps restore symmetry, good will, and mutual care and support for one another, then our kids and grandkids will have happier futures to look forward to. Our anger has the potential to be one of the powerful forces that propels us into making the necessary sacrifices for our future generations.
Yes, we have to be careful. However, I still don't think our anger is something for any of us to be ashamed of or to have to apologize for.
Yes, Josh, you and the doctor are on the right track. The "masculine" has to control the over-emotionality of the "feminine." In most cases, this will be men acting as a control on women.
Any further elaboration on that would detract from the correct point you guys were trying to make, as well as requiring a whole essay and more time than I'm willing to take. I prefer to stick to my historical studies and my fiction.
Just wanted to say I think you're on the right track.
There is a confusion between anger at women, and anger at the hypocrisy women are so easily afforded. It's not about "hating women". It's about hating the behavior.
Well, you aren't going to get any pushback from me on this, Josh. You're right.
I am a 63 year old woman. Feminazism has invaded every aspect of our country, our culture. They've institutionalized the insanity. It pisses me right off how women have driven this country right into the ditch. Worst thing that ever happened was women getting the vote. Seriously. You cannot run a country on feelings - so here we are. The pendulum has swung way past a normal correction. Guess what? The pendulum swing the other way always happens.
Do I think this means that men are going to go about pillaging and raping? No. I don't feel threatened one jot by mens' appropriate anger responses to the crap that's been shoveled on top of them. I have small grandsons. I don't want them growing up in this disaster theater so many people think is normal. It isn't.
One thing I might quibble over just a teeny bit is your statement, "Yes, men are nearly all the rapists." I'm not too sure about that - and I noted the "nearly all" qualifier. Violent rapists, probably yes. But one need only look at the number of news reports coming out over the past several years about female teachers and younger male students. I suspect that there are large numbers of unreported encounters of this type. I don't care if he's 17 and perfectly willing. Call it what you will - sexual assault, corruption of a minor, unlawful sex with a minor, carnal knowledge of a minor, sexual battery - it's rape. Women need to own the behaviors they engage in - and often get a pass on. Sentencing in the teacher/student rape scenario is hella skewed to more severely punish the men verses what sentences women are given.
An excellent conversation and all should listen to that podcast. Ions ago when I was in college the message to women was have a great career, never find a great husband and relationship and successfully raise a family. Your husband was there to support your endeavors. You were the master, he was the help and no worries you and your children could easily do without him.
All these years later we now see a generation of feckless, immature, feminized, unintelligent, weak boys (could not be even called men). The wisps with man buns and a ragged, dirty tee shirt espousing "trans rights are human rights." And since most straight boys still have a penis and a couple testicles urging them on for sex they accept Cluster B women that will walk all over them. Even to the point of engaging the most unattractive women (on purpose) imaginable. In fact, the "boys" often adopt their behavior. Hysterics, victim hood mentality, emotional rollercoasters, endless tattoos, slovenly, unbathed, etc.
I'm now a 60 year old woman, and it's taken me years to work through father issues. I've also experienced sexual assault, bullying and manipulation at the hands of both (non family) males and females that I've had to work through. I needed to have a long period of 'time out' from intimate relationships to do a lot of work soul-searching just to get to intermittent forgiveness. So I'm in no position to judge or berate anyone for their reactions to deep harm. The best I can do is not add to the vitriol and just wish everyone the best possible resolution. Josh, be well and take care, you are appreciated.
I listened to the entire Disaffected episode with Josh and Dr. Mark McDonald, and it was fascinating. I recommend it highly to anyone who hasn't heard it yet.
I was forced to take a course in college called "Perspectives on Gender". No one wanted to take this class, but it was mandatory (and this was 1993!). On day one, the professor, a wizened lesbian in Birkenstocks and a plaid flannel shirt, declared that "All men are rapists. Any men who haven't raped yet just haven't had the opportunity." Even the women in the room looked at each other with bewildered faces. I (and everyone else) knew she was full of shit, but being a grade whore shooting for a perfect GPA, I gave her what she wanted to hear in my term paper and the final exam. I regret that, now.
It's been my experience that a lot of women, being fully aware that most men have a personal code against striking a female, will push verbal taunting and emotional abuse to an extreme, in the knowledge that they're physically safe. It's not bravery; in fact, it's pure cowardice. I am extraordinarily fortunate that my wife is not one of those women, and, in fact, holds present-day woke feminists in as much contempt as I do, if not more!
I'm one of those women who, when watching a video of a woman not only taunting and verbally abusing a man but also doing the finger drilling into the chest culminating in a slap, looks at my husband when the guy slaps her back and says, "She's lucky he didn't deck her. She deserved that."
"For men like me, much of the wound starts with the fact that we love women."
There it is.
A lot of us women don't understand that foundational truth. Because of "critical theory, feminist version," men are the oppressors and women the oppressed. That means that women are vulnerable to abuse from men, but the reverse can't be true, because abusers can't be hurt by their victims. Abusers are never vulnerable to their victims, dontcha know.
And if you've been in a relationship with a Cluster B male, that's how it is -- the idea that he gives one half of a rip what she thinks about him is laughable. By definition, she cannot affect him at all.
Even in the absence of the oppressor/oppressed paradigm, many women are oblivious to the effect we can have on men (outside of sexual arousal). We don't know that seeing a smiling female face can lift a man's spirits for hours. (Hence the "Smile!" request.) We don't know that a woman's tears can devastate men, and they'll go the extra mile to stop them flowing. We don't know that a husband is often driven by the desire to make his wife happy over all other desires.
We just don't understand the extent to which men are charmed by women's very existence, and how they measure their self-worth by how well they can charm us back.
And so we have no idea that we can land blows.
Having been raised by a narcissistic father, I grew up unable to affect my father's wrath or win his approval. I have gone through life figuring that there's nothing I can do to affect men except maybe impress them with my arcane knowledge of the IEEE 802.11 MAC layer. (It helps me at work but not in my personal life.)
It has surprised me to find out that men can be emotionally hurt by women, because my dad was never hurt by me or my mom or my sisters. He was like granite.
"Oh, did I hurt your widdle ego?" feminists have said, as if the male ego were a dragon to be slain rather than the core of a human soul.
I appreciate your insight on the subject of female abuse towards men. There's so much I would never have noticed had you not pointed it out, because the abuse is in the air, everywhere. My personal situation makes me unlikely to clue in. Teh Patriarchy doesn't live rent-free in my head, but I am still pretty dense when it comes to male/female relationships.
To your last sentence: are you kidding? The tender truths you've expressed here: that we women have no idea how easily we either uplift or demoralize our men... the way you've expressed that is pure poetry.
I heard some of A. Tate's own words in his own voice the other day, courtesy Megyn Kelly. It was genuinely shocking--I stood halfway out of the bath tub with my mouth open. I'd never heard him really before.
He was talking about beating up "bitches" and raping them. Baldly, without qualifier. It was horrifying.
It is so, so insulting to see decent men called by the same name these horrific pigs are rightly labeled with. For Christ's sake, I'm the kind of man who would step in front of a woman to protect her from a man like that (even though he'd beat the shit out of me).
Yes! I can't even begin to fathom how and why that creep is given such airtime on so many platforms, even Candace Owens'! I tried watching her latest with him in order to try to understand, but I cannot listen to his horrible voice for more than a few words. Audibly at least, he is the personification of nastiness.
It’s interesting when I think about the sort of oblique ways that this cultural mindset could have impacted someone like me. I’ve never been in a position to say “ouch” the way you describe, but that’s largely because I’ve built my life in such a way that I won’t have to. I caught the edges of this cultural trend when I learned about the concept of Schrodinger’s Rapist around when I was in college. I remember being a little taken aback that this was how women viewed me, and I have to admit that it did more than a little to shape my habits and approaches to romance.
For example, I realize that I never approach women in public. I love striking up conversations with women, but without fail, they have to initiate it. I don’t mean to say “woe is me” and “the feminists ruined my life,” but it’s interesting to realize how these cultural things impacted me in ways I didn’t realize.
Thanks for this and your conversation with Dr. McDonald, Josh. It’s given me a lot to think about.
After listening to the show yesterday, I will say, from my perspective, nothing you said hinted of misogyny. In fact, exposing the negative terrorizing behavior of some women HELPS those of us who are affected by it as well. It is loving women (as a whole) to point out bad behavior in others and say we should not tolerate it any longer. That enforcement of a boundary will "teach" those women to stop it, eventually.
I'm happy that men are starting to talk about it in that sense. The Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) group often has women-haters. I can't stand it. They just sound like the opposite of feminist (men haters) who I can't stand either. I didn't pick up on any of that sort of women-hate from listening to the two of you talk about this issue.
Thanks for the feedback Barbara. Confession-when I saw your comment, I was momentarily afraid to read it all. I was afraid another woman I'm friendly with would decide it did show I was a misogynist. That's nothing to do with you, and everything to do with me and my experience. It's still got me.
I'm sorry to hear that you still have that concern. As you speak openly, more and more, you will repel the people who would think such a thing, and you will continue to gain more friendly women who will not balk at it. Just keep being authentic.
It was an excellent episode. Thanks for having him on and talking about it. I also wrote an article one time titled, "The Lack of Containment Is a Problem" and I was thrilled to hear him mention that men should be containing women through this boundary enforcement. I didn't have much of that growing up and I know of the negative effects. Women and children do feel safer when they've tested boundaries and found that they will not be let down or left vulnerable.
I am a married women and I support this message. It’s true. I have seen this terrible behavior on the part of women, especially younger women. I find it repulsive and embarrassing to our gender. I cringe every time see it. I worry about the damage being inflicted on good men.
You continue to be my personal role model for courage, friend. For the benefit of your readers -- not you, with whom I have these conversations in private -- I will add something. I spent about two years hating every human male as hard as I could. Every single goddamn one. I was so angry at what my father had done and failed to do, and what his pedophile drug dealer had done, and I turned it into an indictment of half of humanity. And I reveled in it. I was proud of it. I wasn't healthy enough to just be angry at the specific men who deserved it. Nor was I brave enough to confront them, adult to adult. So I stewed in my fury and generalized it to all men, everywhere.
I don't regret that time. I think I needed it. I needed to spend years consciously experiencing my anger, to get some practice in the notion that I was human and therefore what happened to me was wrong and I was allowed to be angry. I had no ability to hurt anyone with physical or other power (I was nobody's mother, employer, etc.) so in some ways this was actually harmless, but still -- it was toxic.
And you know what? Nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- ever gave me any pushback. Nobody but one friend knew the details, but that didn't matter. Men who understood it had something to do with my childhood just nodded, accepting my anger as righteous. Other women either treated me neutrally or egged it on (about half and half -- I ran in circles that skewed to damaged, leftist types, so I'm surprised the egging-on proportion wasn't higher).
Men with a similar history of being deeply wounded by women who might similarly need a period of anger don't get that option. There's no equivalent.
So yes, there are plenty of asymmetries that suck in one direction -- it drives me nuts how often men on social media get angry at me for expressing my emotions (as if their anger isn't, itself, an emotion) -- but there are plenty of asymmetries that go the other way.
And some of them, like this one, are profoundly unfair.
The irony, of which I'm sure you're aware, is that none of these reactions of women to men's criticism or insight into their behavior would be effective *if men truly were indifferent to the pain and suffering of women.* If your point was, "I hate women and therefore I wish to cause them pain and distress," such a response would be gratifying, not distressing.
But that's why reversal works - specifically *because* they know that most of society is more self-aware and emotionally vulnerable, and that mentally stable men have an inherent, instinctive desire to protect women.
Like Holly, I also had to spend some significant time experiencing my anger towards men. I think it was a good thing that we didn't get pushback. We needed that time. Anger is a part of grieving(and we all have reasons for serious grief) and should be allowed as such. However, like you, Holly, and others have said- men are not allowed that, and it's usually women (who should be the ones sympathetic to this need) that try to prevent it.
While I know there are some men out there who view anger itself as morally wrong (that's my not-all), it is usually women who operate in that mode. Women do not stop and consider all the times anger has been a motivating force for good and righteous behavior. If the anger we have allowed ourselves to feel and articulate helps restore symmetry, good will, and mutual care and support for one another, then our kids and grandkids will have happier futures to look forward to. Our anger has the potential to be one of the powerful forces that propels us into making the necessary sacrifices for our future generations.
Yes, we have to be careful. However, I still don't think our anger is something for any of us to be ashamed of or to have to apologize for.
Yes, Josh, you and the doctor are on the right track. The "masculine" has to control the over-emotionality of the "feminine." In most cases, this will be men acting as a control on women.
Any further elaboration on that would detract from the correct point you guys were trying to make, as well as requiring a whole essay and more time than I'm willing to take. I prefer to stick to my historical studies and my fiction.
Just wanted to say I think you're on the right track.
There is a confusion between anger at women, and anger at the hypocrisy women are so easily afforded. It's not about "hating women". It's about hating the behavior.
This is true about many things.
Well, you aren't going to get any pushback from me on this, Josh. You're right.
I am a 63 year old woman. Feminazism has invaded every aspect of our country, our culture. They've institutionalized the insanity. It pisses me right off how women have driven this country right into the ditch. Worst thing that ever happened was women getting the vote. Seriously. You cannot run a country on feelings - so here we are. The pendulum has swung way past a normal correction. Guess what? The pendulum swing the other way always happens.
Do I think this means that men are going to go about pillaging and raping? No. I don't feel threatened one jot by mens' appropriate anger responses to the crap that's been shoveled on top of them. I have small grandsons. I don't want them growing up in this disaster theater so many people think is normal. It isn't.
One thing I might quibble over just a teeny bit is your statement, "Yes, men are nearly all the rapists." I'm not too sure about that - and I noted the "nearly all" qualifier. Violent rapists, probably yes. But one need only look at the number of news reports coming out over the past several years about female teachers and younger male students. I suspect that there are large numbers of unreported encounters of this type. I don't care if he's 17 and perfectly willing. Call it what you will - sexual assault, corruption of a minor, unlawful sex with a minor, carnal knowledge of a minor, sexual battery - it's rape. Women need to own the behaviors they engage in - and often get a pass on. Sentencing in the teacher/student rape scenario is hella skewed to more severely punish the men verses what sentences women are given.
🎯 on every point!
🎯 Thank you, kbi. I was trying to find the words and you nailed it.
An excellent conversation and all should listen to that podcast. Ions ago when I was in college the message to women was have a great career, never find a great husband and relationship and successfully raise a family. Your husband was there to support your endeavors. You were the master, he was the help and no worries you and your children could easily do without him.
All these years later we now see a generation of feckless, immature, feminized, unintelligent, weak boys (could not be even called men). The wisps with man buns and a ragged, dirty tee shirt espousing "trans rights are human rights." And since most straight boys still have a penis and a couple testicles urging them on for sex they accept Cluster B women that will walk all over them. Even to the point of engaging the most unattractive women (on purpose) imaginable. In fact, the "boys" often adopt their behavior. Hysterics, victim hood mentality, emotional rollercoasters, endless tattoos, slovenly, unbathed, etc.
I'm now a 60 year old woman, and it's taken me years to work through father issues. I've also experienced sexual assault, bullying and manipulation at the hands of both (non family) males and females that I've had to work through. I needed to have a long period of 'time out' from intimate relationships to do a lot of work soul-searching just to get to intermittent forgiveness. So I'm in no position to judge or berate anyone for their reactions to deep harm. The best I can do is not add to the vitriol and just wish everyone the best possible resolution. Josh, be well and take care, you are appreciated.
I listened to the entire Disaffected episode with Josh and Dr. Mark McDonald, and it was fascinating. I recommend it highly to anyone who hasn't heard it yet.
I was forced to take a course in college called "Perspectives on Gender". No one wanted to take this class, but it was mandatory (and this was 1993!). On day one, the professor, a wizened lesbian in Birkenstocks and a plaid flannel shirt, declared that "All men are rapists. Any men who haven't raped yet just haven't had the opportunity." Even the women in the room looked at each other with bewildered faces. I (and everyone else) knew she was full of shit, but being a grade whore shooting for a perfect GPA, I gave her what she wanted to hear in my term paper and the final exam. I regret that, now.
It's been my experience that a lot of women, being fully aware that most men have a personal code against striking a female, will push verbal taunting and emotional abuse to an extreme, in the knowledge that they're physically safe. It's not bravery; in fact, it's pure cowardice. I am extraordinarily fortunate that my wife is not one of those women, and, in fact, holds present-day woke feminists in as much contempt as I do, if not more!
I'm one of those women who, when watching a video of a woman not only taunting and verbally abusing a man but also doing the finger drilling into the chest culminating in a slap, looks at my husband when the guy slaps her back and says, "She's lucky he didn't deck her. She deserved that."
Sounds like your husband is a lucky guy, too.
I don't kid myself. I'm quite sure I got the better deal.
"For men like me, much of the wound starts with the fact that we love women."
There it is.
A lot of us women don't understand that foundational truth. Because of "critical theory, feminist version," men are the oppressors and women the oppressed. That means that women are vulnerable to abuse from men, but the reverse can't be true, because abusers can't be hurt by their victims. Abusers are never vulnerable to their victims, dontcha know.
And if you've been in a relationship with a Cluster B male, that's how it is -- the idea that he gives one half of a rip what she thinks about him is laughable. By definition, she cannot affect him at all.
Even in the absence of the oppressor/oppressed paradigm, many women are oblivious to the effect we can have on men (outside of sexual arousal). We don't know that seeing a smiling female face can lift a man's spirits for hours. (Hence the "Smile!" request.) We don't know that a woman's tears can devastate men, and they'll go the extra mile to stop them flowing. We don't know that a husband is often driven by the desire to make his wife happy over all other desires.
We just don't understand the extent to which men are charmed by women's very existence, and how they measure their self-worth by how well they can charm us back.
And so we have no idea that we can land blows.
Having been raised by a narcissistic father, I grew up unable to affect my father's wrath or win his approval. I have gone through life figuring that there's nothing I can do to affect men except maybe impress them with my arcane knowledge of the IEEE 802.11 MAC layer. (It helps me at work but not in my personal life.)
It has surprised me to find out that men can be emotionally hurt by women, because my dad was never hurt by me or my mom or my sisters. He was like granite.
"Oh, did I hurt your widdle ego?" feminists have said, as if the male ego were a dragon to be slain rather than the core of a human soul.
I appreciate your insight on the subject of female abuse towards men. There's so much I would never have noticed had you not pointed it out, because the abuse is in the air, everywhere. My personal situation makes me unlikely to clue in. Teh Patriarchy doesn't live rent-free in my head, but I am still pretty dense when it comes to male/female relationships.
To your last sentence: are you kidding? The tender truths you've expressed here: that we women have no idea how easily we either uplift or demoralize our men... the way you've expressed that is pure poetry.
I'm an old (60+) spinster because I utterly failed to navigate the male/female space.
But thanks for the kind words.
Well, I'd say you navigated life with wisdom and grace.
One more thing:
If you want to see genuine misogynists, look at the Tate brothers. They're actual, genuine, certified misogynists.
Compare them to a normie man who has had enough of women's whining or who pushes back against female nonsense or female antisocial behavior.
Can you not see that there is a difference of degree and also of KIND?
I heard some of A. Tate's own words in his own voice the other day, courtesy Megyn Kelly. It was genuinely shocking--I stood halfway out of the bath tub with my mouth open. I'd never heard him really before.
He was talking about beating up "bitches" and raping them. Baldly, without qualifier. It was horrifying.
It is so, so insulting to see decent men called by the same name these horrific pigs are rightly labeled with. For Christ's sake, I'm the kind of man who would step in front of a woman to protect her from a man like that (even though he'd beat the shit out of me).
Shaking my head.
Yes! I can't even begin to fathom how and why that creep is given such airtime on so many platforms, even Candace Owens'! I tried watching her latest with him in order to try to understand, but I cannot listen to his horrible voice for more than a few words. Audibly at least, he is the personification of nastiness.
It’s interesting when I think about the sort of oblique ways that this cultural mindset could have impacted someone like me. I’ve never been in a position to say “ouch” the way you describe, but that’s largely because I’ve built my life in such a way that I won’t have to. I caught the edges of this cultural trend when I learned about the concept of Schrodinger’s Rapist around when I was in college. I remember being a little taken aback that this was how women viewed me, and I have to admit that it did more than a little to shape my habits and approaches to romance.
For example, I realize that I never approach women in public. I love striking up conversations with women, but without fail, they have to initiate it. I don’t mean to say “woe is me” and “the feminists ruined my life,” but it’s interesting to realize how these cultural things impacted me in ways I didn’t realize.
Thanks for this and your conversation with Dr. McDonald, Josh. It’s given me a lot to think about.
After listening to the show yesterday, I will say, from my perspective, nothing you said hinted of misogyny. In fact, exposing the negative terrorizing behavior of some women HELPS those of us who are affected by it as well. It is loving women (as a whole) to point out bad behavior in others and say we should not tolerate it any longer. That enforcement of a boundary will "teach" those women to stop it, eventually.
I'm happy that men are starting to talk about it in that sense. The Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) group often has women-haters. I can't stand it. They just sound like the opposite of feminist (men haters) who I can't stand either. I didn't pick up on any of that sort of women-hate from listening to the two of you talk about this issue.
Thanks for the feedback Barbara. Confession-when I saw your comment, I was momentarily afraid to read it all. I was afraid another woman I'm friendly with would decide it did show I was a misogynist. That's nothing to do with you, and everything to do with me and my experience. It's still got me.
I'm sorry to hear that you still have that concern. As you speak openly, more and more, you will repel the people who would think such a thing, and you will continue to gain more friendly women who will not balk at it. Just keep being authentic.
It was an excellent episode. Thanks for having him on and talking about it. I also wrote an article one time titled, "The Lack of Containment Is a Problem" and I was thrilled to hear him mention that men should be containing women through this boundary enforcement. I didn't have much of that growing up and I know of the negative effects. Women and children do feel safer when they've tested boundaries and found that they will not be let down or left vulnerable.