I’m restricting commenting to paid subscribers on this one, though it is open to read for anyone. Why? This topic reliably brings out the ugliest and most bloodthirsty fights in the comments, and I won’t host that level of vitriol. It’s not “disagreement,” it’s straight-up viciousness.
You are 100% correct to ask all of those questions, and because our money is being given to both sides of this war in some capacity I feel that we have a right to that information.
I have no idea how to go about finding accurate information, but I absolutely agree with your assessment of the emotional reactions on both sides. I think that the underlying issue is that governments have to lie to convince people to either directly kill other human beings that they don't know or fund those killings.
Re the vitriol on the topic: most humans appear incapable of understanding that multiple arguments supporting opposing narratives can be true at once.
Would I want to live in Gaza under the boot of Israel? Fuck no.
Does the taking of human shields mean you get an unlimited military advantage against an opponent who at least has to be able to sell that they are the good guys? That cannot be allowed to be true for game theoretic reasons.
I denounce all actors involved, and have nothing but compassion for the innocents on both sides who live in hell because of the psychopaths they share a culture with.
I have no answers, only the same questions. People like Douglas Murray, who I have long relied on for factual and reasoned thought on many topics, have disappointed me on this one. Even Glenn Greenwald is unmistakably on a side, his the anti-Israel one, although he does a better job than most of at least trying to appear objective. I feel like one of very few who has no strong feelings for either side, other than to condemn barbarity wherever it is found.
You are right to be thinking critically about this. Speech to video AI exists now, so it is possible for any of the events of this war to have been faked.
I cannot recommend Peggy Hall/The Healthy American's substack highly enough for deep dive critical thinking about how to discern what is real vs fake when it comes to war between Israel and Hamas.
Here's my view: the Israel/Gaza offensive is intentional mind-f**kery again. I'm convinced the Oct 7th event was an inside job-- a PSYOP of the first degree (that acronym isn't around for nothing). From the many articles I've read on the topic, I believe that Hamas is a MOSSAD/CIA creation and Oct 7th fulfilled the same function that 9/11 did (excuse to go to war).
So many details of that day were "off" such as border security having been lifted, and many others including the hours-long non-response. I watched several of those "kidnapping victim" videos and I swear to God those people were making it up; there were too many leaks of dupers' delight there. But the "ordinary" Israeli citizens aren't in on the hoax, of course. They're just being played like all the rest of us, only to their greater disadvantage for now being freshly made the target of thriving anti-Semitism.
The way we must preface our questions with a veritable novel of "not all" and "I'm not inferring to..." is extraordinarily exhausting. We the people can't even agree on whether or not the rape and murder of thousands is good or bad.
Growing up, I saw my grandfather, Julius, take measures to hide he was Jewish. He was a well respected businessman. "What's the big deal?", I thought. "They're colleagues, they wouldn't care."
Re how to know what is true. We look for evidence and for people who are trying to tell the truth. It’s the same process at looking at a narcissistic smear campaign.
The roots of this 1000 year old conflict are so deeply tangled & embedded that I don’t believe that those living in the region know what’s actually going on & how much they are being played by the modern day psychopaths.
Thank you for raising these questions and providing a forum for us to speak freely and compassionately. I’m very conflicted here, and I really cannot tell what are and aren’t facts and truth. It does feel like being mind controlled by my (cluster B?) father and my extreme religious upbringing. I was never sure if up was down and black was white. I also have experience being bullied and bullying in return. I sense that the majority population on BOTH ‘sides’ of this divide just want to live in peace and can’t get out from under their corrupt and deranged leadership in a holy war. I sense evil and continued trauma.
For what it's worth, I have two friends from Palestine. An older couple. They've lived in the US for a long time and are lovely, gentle people. One of them lost a brother and five other family members all at once in the airstrike on St. Porphyrius Church in Gaza. I share your concerns and your reticence. And I check the news every few days to see if those precious Bibas children have been rescued from Hamas. From my very limited vantage point, it seems to be a catastrophe from every angle. Ultimately I am (mostly) in the dark.
Thank you for even asking the questions, while knowing how emotionally charged it is for people. I think the fact that putting the questions out there because you sincerely want answers, ties your stomach up in knots because you anticipate so much ugliness, even possibly from your own supporters, tells us how well and truly fucked we all are. (Sorry for the poorly constructed sentence!)
Disclaimer: for the rest of this post, when I say "you", I mean in in the universal sense, not directed at Josh, specifically.
My 2 cents is this: what's freaking me out is that no one wants peace anymore. In anything. Everybody wants to pick a side, then rain holy hell on anyone who disagrees, even though these are deeply complicated situations that stretch back generations, well beyond recent events. This should be taken into account with what happened in Gaza, just like it needs to be taken into account with what happened in Ukraine.
There is HISTORY that must be taken into account in all of these conflicts. If people don't want to look at it in its entirety, then they're not ready to truly understand. This shit is messy and unpleasant, and just like any other conflict between people in other countries, we Americans cannot relate in any way to a war-torn region of the world. We are pampered, comfortable, and too distracted by our very selves to truly understand the horror happening around the world. We will never know what is like to be one of these very real human beings trying not to die on a daily, hourly basis.
No matter which side you choose (and really, unless we're personally involved, what right do we have to choose a side in any of these conflicts?) I think we should all take a step back from the bloodthirsty circus and attempt to regain our humanity.
Try to remember how much propaganda we're all drowning in every day. It's meant to outrage and demoralize us to the point that we become all-consumed with bloodlust, or we become hollow, lifeless shells of human beings and give up entirely.
I'd ask you to check your moral compass, either way. If you can justify what Hamas did on that day, you need to have a good hard look at yourself. If you believe that rape and murder are the actual "cost of freedom", then admit that's who you are, and take the lumps that come from it. Only blind fanatics will excuse your position.
On the flip side, whether you believe the official death tolls or not, if you can't recognize a wildly disproportionate response when you see one, then you also need to have a good think about what you're willing to tolerate in the name of "justice" and ask yourself if it really sits right with you.
Is an eye for an eye a good response? Even if that seems reasonable to you, we passed the 1,200 dead Israelis = 1,200 dead Palestinians many thousands of dead humans ago... by a LOT, by any count. Israeli children died on October 7th. Since that day, Palestinian children have died and they're still being killed, maimed, and starved for months on end. That's the part that's not sitting right with many reasonable and empathetic people.
I'm half Ashkenazi Jew, I'm not an antisemite for being appalled at Israel's response. On some level, anyone who's not an absolute zealot must objectively look at this situation and see that the bombing has to stop.
Where are the calls from our leaders for peace? Why is America funding both sides? Why aren't our leaders stopping this, when they so easily could by turning off the cash spigot? Could it be that once again, America is running its own agenda and sees no upside to demanding peace? It's coming up on 5 months. How can this not be enough already? Will it unrape the women? Will it bring back Israel's innocent dead? Are there not innocent Palestinians dying right now? I'm so tired of the killing. I don't care who's doing it or why anymore, I just want it to fucking STOP already.
My sympathy for Israel is now wearing thin and I have a hard time seeing how the continued destruction of Gaza could ever be justified at this point.
In fighting monsters, we become monsters at the cost of our own humanity. In time, there will be nothing left but monsters. Then what?
I think Darryl Cooper has done the most in-depth coverage of the history leading up to this event. He covers this in a 20+ hour podcast series. It’s excellent.
I just listened to Douglas Murray say that if any other country in the West had been attacked like that, there would be no "proportionality" discussion. I think he's correct. After 911, there was not that discussion. Hamas is evil. Innocent people are hurt. We can't trust any media or government organization to tell us the truth of what's happening about anything. Not sure where that leaves us. But I'm glad there are other people who see it.
Thank you Josh! I have been wanting to know these questions too. I suspect part of the reason it is so hard to get to the truth is because the media narrative wants to turn real-life conflicts into a Disney movie: "Good guy vs Bad Guy" and sometimes they're both bad! Or both have very bad players or just plain complicated. Thanks for starting this conversation.
You are 100% correct to ask all of those questions, and because our money is being given to both sides of this war in some capacity I feel that we have a right to that information.
I have no idea how to go about finding accurate information, but I absolutely agree with your assessment of the emotional reactions on both sides. I think that the underlying issue is that governments have to lie to convince people to either directly kill other human beings that they don't know or fund those killings.
To quote my beloved Sylvester Stallone from “Rambo”…They(Hamas) drew first blood.” Play bitch games, win bitch prizes.
Re the vitriol on the topic: most humans appear incapable of understanding that multiple arguments supporting opposing narratives can be true at once.
Would I want to live in Gaza under the boot of Israel? Fuck no.
Does the taking of human shields mean you get an unlimited military advantage against an opponent who at least has to be able to sell that they are the good guys? That cannot be allowed to be true for game theoretic reasons.
I denounce all actors involved, and have nothing but compassion for the innocents on both sides who live in hell because of the psychopaths they share a culture with.
I have no answers, only the same questions. People like Douglas Murray, who I have long relied on for factual and reasoned thought on many topics, have disappointed me on this one. Even Glenn Greenwald is unmistakably on a side, his the anti-Israel one, although he does a better job than most of at least trying to appear objective. I feel like one of very few who has no strong feelings for either side, other than to condemn barbarity wherever it is found.
You are right to be thinking critically about this. Speech to video AI exists now, so it is possible for any of the events of this war to have been faked.
I cannot recommend Peggy Hall/The Healthy American's substack highly enough for deep dive critical thinking about how to discern what is real vs fake when it comes to war between Israel and Hamas.
Here's my view: the Israel/Gaza offensive is intentional mind-f**kery again. I'm convinced the Oct 7th event was an inside job-- a PSYOP of the first degree (that acronym isn't around for nothing). From the many articles I've read on the topic, I believe that Hamas is a MOSSAD/CIA creation and Oct 7th fulfilled the same function that 9/11 did (excuse to go to war).
So many details of that day were "off" such as border security having been lifted, and many others including the hours-long non-response. I watched several of those "kidnapping victim" videos and I swear to God those people were making it up; there were too many leaks of dupers' delight there. But the "ordinary" Israeli citizens aren't in on the hoax, of course. They're just being played like all the rest of us, only to their greater disadvantage for now being freshly made the target of thriving anti-Semitism.
The way we must preface our questions with a veritable novel of "not all" and "I'm not inferring to..." is extraordinarily exhausting. We the people can't even agree on whether or not the rape and murder of thousands is good or bad.
Growing up, I saw my grandfather, Julius, take measures to hide he was Jewish. He was a well respected businessman. "What's the big deal?", I thought. "They're colleagues, they wouldn't care."
I was so very ignorant.
Your analysis is spot on. This message is from myself and my husband, Ted Wrinch (also a paying subscriber).
This might help:
The Kill Rate of Civilians to Hamas is 2:1 - the lowest in history.
It’s relatively low given how Hamas uses their own people as human shield.
The IDF is not targeting civilians but there will be psychopaths in their army.
Answer to your Q:The kill rate seems to indicate proportionality.
Normal kill rate historically:
2:1 World War 2 (between 3:2 and 2:1)
3:1 Korean War (after WW2)
1:1 Vietnam war
4:1 NATO in Kosovo
10:1 Chechen
4:1 Afghanistan
Regarding PHA: we’re not experts, but most likely they’re not honest.
We’re asking the Question: Why did Hamas build 300+ miles of tunnels that go through institutions. We look at facts re the tunnel typology.
‘Almost all of Hamas's tunnels are built into civilian and protected sites in densely populated urban areas.’
https://mwi.westpoint.edu/gazas-underground-hamass-entire-politico-military-strategy-rests-on-its-tunnels/#:~:text=These%20laws%20restrict%20the%20use,in%20densely%20populated%20urban%20areas.
Re how to know what is true. We look for evidence and for people who are trying to tell the truth. It’s the same process at looking at a narcissistic smear campaign.
More facts:
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
This was written in 2014.
We’ve seen clips of what the article describes.
Look into the WestPoint article.
There’s also an article in The Hill regarding why Hamas builds tunnels. (written after the attack)
Our family also watched a lot of videos by The Green Prince. Have you caught any of his videos?
The roots of this 1000 year old conflict are so deeply tangled & embedded that I don’t believe that those living in the region know what’s actually going on & how much they are being played by the modern day psychopaths.
Thank you for raising these questions and providing a forum for us to speak freely and compassionately. I’m very conflicted here, and I really cannot tell what are and aren’t facts and truth. It does feel like being mind controlled by my (cluster B?) father and my extreme religious upbringing. I was never sure if up was down and black was white. I also have experience being bullied and bullying in return. I sense that the majority population on BOTH ‘sides’ of this divide just want to live in peace and can’t get out from under their corrupt and deranged leadership in a holy war. I sense evil and continued trauma.
No winners here. I despair.
For what it's worth, I have two friends from Palestine. An older couple. They've lived in the US for a long time and are lovely, gentle people. One of them lost a brother and five other family members all at once in the airstrike on St. Porphyrius Church in Gaza. I share your concerns and your reticence. And I check the news every few days to see if those precious Bibas children have been rescued from Hamas. From my very limited vantage point, it seems to be a catastrophe from every angle. Ultimately I am (mostly) in the dark.
Thank you for even asking the questions, while knowing how emotionally charged it is for people. I think the fact that putting the questions out there because you sincerely want answers, ties your stomach up in knots because you anticipate so much ugliness, even possibly from your own supporters, tells us how well and truly fucked we all are. (Sorry for the poorly constructed sentence!)
Disclaimer: for the rest of this post, when I say "you", I mean in in the universal sense, not directed at Josh, specifically.
My 2 cents is this: what's freaking me out is that no one wants peace anymore. In anything. Everybody wants to pick a side, then rain holy hell on anyone who disagrees, even though these are deeply complicated situations that stretch back generations, well beyond recent events. This should be taken into account with what happened in Gaza, just like it needs to be taken into account with what happened in Ukraine.
There is HISTORY that must be taken into account in all of these conflicts. If people don't want to look at it in its entirety, then they're not ready to truly understand. This shit is messy and unpleasant, and just like any other conflict between people in other countries, we Americans cannot relate in any way to a war-torn region of the world. We are pampered, comfortable, and too distracted by our very selves to truly understand the horror happening around the world. We will never know what is like to be one of these very real human beings trying not to die on a daily, hourly basis.
No matter which side you choose (and really, unless we're personally involved, what right do we have to choose a side in any of these conflicts?) I think we should all take a step back from the bloodthirsty circus and attempt to regain our humanity.
Try to remember how much propaganda we're all drowning in every day. It's meant to outrage and demoralize us to the point that we become all-consumed with bloodlust, or we become hollow, lifeless shells of human beings and give up entirely.
I'd ask you to check your moral compass, either way. If you can justify what Hamas did on that day, you need to have a good hard look at yourself. If you believe that rape and murder are the actual "cost of freedom", then admit that's who you are, and take the lumps that come from it. Only blind fanatics will excuse your position.
On the flip side, whether you believe the official death tolls or not, if you can't recognize a wildly disproportionate response when you see one, then you also need to have a good think about what you're willing to tolerate in the name of "justice" and ask yourself if it really sits right with you.
Is an eye for an eye a good response? Even if that seems reasonable to you, we passed the 1,200 dead Israelis = 1,200 dead Palestinians many thousands of dead humans ago... by a LOT, by any count. Israeli children died on October 7th. Since that day, Palestinian children have died and they're still being killed, maimed, and starved for months on end. That's the part that's not sitting right with many reasonable and empathetic people.
I'm half Ashkenazi Jew, I'm not an antisemite for being appalled at Israel's response. On some level, anyone who's not an absolute zealot must objectively look at this situation and see that the bombing has to stop.
Where are the calls from our leaders for peace? Why is America funding both sides? Why aren't our leaders stopping this, when they so easily could by turning off the cash spigot? Could it be that once again, America is running its own agenda and sees no upside to demanding peace? It's coming up on 5 months. How can this not be enough already? Will it unrape the women? Will it bring back Israel's innocent dead? Are there not innocent Palestinians dying right now? I'm so tired of the killing. I don't care who's doing it or why anymore, I just want it to fucking STOP already.
My sympathy for Israel is now wearing thin and I have a hard time seeing how the continued destruction of Gaza could ever be justified at this point.
In fighting monsters, we become monsters at the cost of our own humanity. In time, there will be nothing left but monsters. Then what?
I think Darryl Cooper has done the most in-depth coverage of the history leading up to this event. He covers this in a 20+ hour podcast series. It’s excellent.
https://substack.com/@martyrmade?r=8l2it&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=profile
I just listened to Douglas Murray say that if any other country in the West had been attacked like that, there would be no "proportionality" discussion. I think he's correct. After 911, there was not that discussion. Hamas is evil. Innocent people are hurt. We can't trust any media or government organization to tell us the truth of what's happening about anything. Not sure where that leaves us. But I'm glad there are other people who see it.
Thank you Josh! I have been wanting to know these questions too. I suspect part of the reason it is so hard to get to the truth is because the media narrative wants to turn real-life conflicts into a Disney movie: "Good guy vs Bad Guy" and sometimes they're both bad! Or both have very bad players or just plain complicated. Thanks for starting this conversation.