In the short term, the Oval Office Meltdown gave the public a rare view of what frequently goes on behind closed doors. And yes, it should have stayed behind closed doors. The political commentary predicably fell along the usual partisan lines with the usual agendas being served. The claim that the "meltdown" was a calculated move by Trump/Vance seems unlikely, especially when you watch the 50-minute tape. If anything, Zelinskyy may have had such a game plan. I don't know but I believe that the parties will sign a "minerals deal" in the near future because its good for both parties. Diplomacy is often one step at a time.
I disagree about the minerals deal being a good thing. It was a carrot that ass refused to eat. Let his corrupt but oh so brave little Ukraine fight it out to oblivion.
Bground info shows that Zelnsky was briefed by Democrats behind the scenes to refuse the deal and they staged this fiasco as a pressure stunt with Yermak (his COS). The main issue was that he was supposed to be in DC to sign the deal - but that just shows he was duplicitous from the start - or he flipflops from day to day.
Zelensky acted like a spoiled child. It was embarrassing to watch the president and vice president forced to "discipline" him in public because he wouldn't straighten up and behave himself. If Zelensky had threatened to hold his breath until he got what he wanted, I wouldn't have been surprised at all.
So, no, it didn't change my opinion because I already had a very low opinion of Zelensky. He's an idiot and a grifter and not to be trusted.
My impression of the oval office incident is that Zelinsky was being a little bitch from the start. He was trying to act tough and impersonated resolve, but he just looked weak and petulant. He clearly missed the point that Trump and JD's were in control of the outcome and that they can't be played like Biden. Zelinsky confirmed that he is just a little bitch with zero diplomatic skills. More shockingly is how widespread self loathing has become among the American people. It is offensive to me how so many of our people belive it is our obligation to "save" anyone who can portray themselves as a victim and how strength and national pride are embarrassing to them. Trump is a hero and should be praised for putting that little turd in his place.
Zelenskyy came with an agenda not quite in sync with Donald Trump's. That doesn't surprise me, but he did not navigate the disconnect at all well.
He wanted to push points then and there which were not germane to the agreement. Questions like formal security guarantees and addressing the repatriation of abducted Ukrainian children are not illegitimate questions, but they are not pertinent to the framework deal that was the primary reason for having the meeting.
Bring such things up during the presser? Sure. As a basic tactical proposition Zelenskyy needed to at least mention them so as not to concede anything by silence. However, since the framework deal explicitly provided for additional follow up talks to put the actual meat on the bones, harping on these tangential points during the presser was bad tactics.
Corporate media didn't help with insipid bait questions like "do you (Zelenskyy) feel the US is on your side?" I will say that Zelenskyy had enough presence at that point to take his cue from Trump on answering that, although he then couldn't stop with a simple yes and had to drag in all of his talking points all over again.
The media is doing what the media always does: push narrative over fact. As has become common everywhere these days, ideological purity is always being demanded. It is required that one support Ukraine as the good guys, and therefore it is required that one want Russia exterminated because they are the bad guys.
Zelenskyy obviously feels this way, but he's been dealing with three years of attritional war, so that should not surprise anyone.
Corporate media is denouncing Trump and Vance because they dare to reshape and reframe the narrative.
Trump's view of foreign policy is to move everything into the economic sphere and "do a deal." Some will say that's a naive and simplistic view of the world, but I challenge anyone to explain why moving the conflict between Ukraine and Russia into the economic sphere is not a good idea.
Corporate media will not abide any deviation from their established narrative, nor, it seems, will the leaders in the EU.
I read this morning where a Nordic fuel supplier is refusing to service US Naval vessels because of this contratemps over Ukraine. I'm not sure that I'm ready to support Mike Lee's call for the US to withdraw from NATO, but if Europe doesn't find a way to put their attitudes in neutral pretty damn fast that's exactly what's going to happen.
All this because Donald Trump is willing to talk with Putin and look for an off-ramp to finally end this war.
Leaving NATO is the biggest of big sticks and the Norwegian stunt is idiotic... but US is so NATO entangled it cannot up & leave within a 4-year timespan - look at NORAD being integrated in Canadian territory etc. US would lose their ballistic early warning radars etc.
Plus the access to bases in Germany & Med... Not going to happen at least in the short term.
NORAD isn't a part of NATO, but is a joint command between the US and Canada. The US could leave NATO tomorrow and NORAD would not be impacted at all.
As NORAD exists to provide air defense for Canada as well, it seems unlikely--particularly in light of all that is being said about Russia--that Canada will want to discontinue the joint air defense posture.
The US has supplementary Status Of Forces Agreements (SOFA) with most if not all NATO countries, and certainly ones with major bases (e.g., Rammstein, in Germany). Withdrawing from NATO would not necessarily impact base access, certainly not in the near term. Long term that's a bit problematic.
I expect this behavior around any negotiations, normally behind closed doors. the fact that this started to unravel after 40 mins in front of the entire press is pretty insane. to me Zelensky looks panicked and for good reason. he gambled with his own country to follow the West and it blew up in his face. he knows that any deal Ukraine gets will be worse that the one negotiated in Istanbul in early 2022. his own generals and advisors are apparently jumping ship.
Zelensky is a man about to walk the plank and he knows it.
Haven’t caught this week’s episode yet, but I did watch the whole conference in the Oval Office.
I initially caught the hot moments at the end, and my initial reaction was split. I was happy to see Zelensky being taken to task, because the Europeans and the American Left (including the Neocons) have treated him like he’s some hybrid of Alexander the Great, Jesus Christ, and John Lennon. I’ve had nothing but bad hits from Zelensky since I started seeing him wearing that faux military costume even when there’s no need for it. Still I thought it was a bit excessive to have Trump and Vance piling on to him.
After watching the whole thing, I’m left with the impression that Zelensky is significantly more incompetent than I initially thought (Though I suspect after dealing with a carrot in the Oval Office before Trump he may have had reason to expect it to work). All he had to do was put a tie on, smile, keep his mouth shut, then thank everyone on his way out. That would have given him a better security guarantee than he’ll be able to manage because it would have put American citizens and economic interests right in Ukraine’s back yard. He couldn’t manage a single one of those things. He tried to dictate moral and strategic terms from a position of unbelievable weakness.
If someone did that to me in my home after I had provided them with survival-level succor, I would have been more confused by the arrogance and stupidity than I would have been angry. Of course I still would have told him to get the fuck out.
Zelensky is probably being coached by the neocons from the Obama-Clinton cabal. I am certain that this whole endeavor is a money laundering operation. This goes back to at least 2014. Zelensky was stupidly treated like a movie star during the Biden years. He thinks he can prolong this like Vietnam, and the money machine will keep dispensing. He was arrogant, argumentative, rude, and disrespectful to a country that has already given them hundreds of billions. They have *sold our weapons on the black market*. Our weapons are now in the hands of terrorists and drug cartels. I think we should leave NATO. Let the decadent Europeans who sneer at us while we pay for their national defense figure it out. Fuck these people.
Groceries are too expensive. Fuel is too expensive. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are suffering from drug addiction and chronic health problems. Our kids are illiterate. Young people can't afford home ownership. We have just now stopped an invasion of our country, with lottery winnings for the invaders. Enough. The United States has paid for the whole world for too long. I simply don't care anymore. You put the oxygen mask on yourself before attempting to help your seatmate.
Just a hint: with Amazon URLs (heck with any URL), you can cut off everything after the first question mark. The rest is information that Amazon uses to determine how you got to the page.
Intellectually, I feel grateful to Trump and Vance, proud of their leadership, and relieved that they are not going to continue pouring money into a corrupt foreign country and risking a bigger war for no good reason.
Emotionally, the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I kind of regret having watched it. I am a very confrontation-averse person, and while I can see that Zelensky was behaving badly the whole time, still it made me so uncomfortable to watch Vance requesting expressions of gratitude and Trump talking over Zelensky (who was obviously interrupting very rudely). Everyone got too heated. I don’t appreciate all the X headlines of “Watch T and V DESTROY Z!!!”
Then my husband told me that he was inspired by Trump’s methods (eg. repeating a simple point over and over until it is heard) and plans to use them with our own young children! We have masculine leaders in our White House, and they are going to take a fatherly method of discipline to troublemakers, and it is going to make many women squirm to watch it. As a squirming woman, I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
I do wonder what Zelensky’s end game was. Did he honestly believe Trump would change their deal in the middle of a press conference?
Trump was completely restrained and conciliatory for 40 minutes. Zelensky acted like a rude entitled pouty teenager. But when he called Vice President Vance “JD” and condescendingly “schooled” him on Russia, there was nothing left for Trump to do. What would have been humiliating for the US was to allow his rude antagonistic behavior to go unchecked.
You did a great job with last night’s show. My opinion certainly didn’t change because I already agreed with you in full. If you need even more proof how deranged Zelensky and those taking his side in this diplomatic debacle actually are, you need to watch today’s Rubin Report. Dave is showing clips most of us have not yet seen from before the actual meeting to what happened after. Most interesting so far are the remarks made by Lindsay Graham ripping Zelensky several new ones!
I very much appreciated your framing -- that they had already been in talks, that they'd already come to an agreement, that this press confab was supposed to be ceremonial, and therefore it was inappropriate for Zelensky to attempt to litigate it further.
Watching the exchanges in that light, it was evident that Trump and Vance had already had these very discussions with Zelensky behind closed doors, and that Trump and Vance had already told him: "you have no cards to play; take the deal."
Zelensky was Not Happy with that at all. I can't say I blame him. Whether he's acting in good faith or bad, being told by his primary benefactor to give up the fight for his country is a kick in the teeth. However, trying to start the same arguments right there in front of everyone was not appropriate. I'm not sure what he hoped would happen. Was the admin supposed to say, "you know, you're right. Let's go back and change the terms"?
As soon as it was evident that Zelensky wasn't going to let it go, maybe Trump and Vance should have refrained from responding to his arguments and shut down the event sooner than they did. But given that Zelensky was behaving in an unexpected manner, I can see how they'd not know how to act in the moment.
The strong reaction in the media was going to happen regardless of what happened. If it had all gone smoothly, they'd still have found a pretext to clutch their pearls and dial it all up to 11.
I have been baffled by the whole Ukraine thing. It's weird to me that the right is calling to end military support and the left is saying "all the munniez!" especially since Russia is involved. Back in the day, the right hated Russia, and no former KGB agent would be given the benefit of the doubt. Supporting the cause of liberty -- for anyone -- was as American as apple pie.
Is it because the left has gone all-in for Ukraine? Is it because Biden was supplying the military support, and it's almost certain there are terrible shenanigans going on? Is the right super-disillusioned after supporting the War in Iraq, which wasn't what it seemed to be?
Telling Europe to step up and take care of it is probably a good idea at this point. They've been enjoying our nuclear umbrella while spitting in our faces, and it's time for them to look out for their own interests instead of tearing down their nuclear reactors so they can become MOAR dependent on Russian gas.
We're stopping cyber action against Russia? Did we make a secret deal with Putin to let him keep what he conquered in Ukraine -- but only that -- and that we'll stop the cyber action as long as he doesn't cross any more lines?
"We're aligned with Russia now" is the narrative, and whatever you think of the Ukraine situation, I don't want to align with Russia, either. Putin is a psychopath with imperial aspirations.
We aren’t stopping cyber action against Russia. Read more carefully, we’re stopping cyber attacks against Russia. Your X source is known to align with (anyone outside the U.S.)
If you ever took the time to research all of the Russia investigation predicates, court proceedings, and lack of evidence you would realize the U.S. intelligence community is no better than Putin’s. Our intelligence community focused its warfare on American citizens to benefit one party.
I’d say, as someone somewhat on the right, I self identify as small ‘l’ libertarian, and have always been anti-war unless we are attacked.
You are exactly right the right are disillusioned about foreign wars because of Iraq. Also, families of people on the right have a number of friends and family that were wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan, and are well aware of the cost of war in human suffering, most of the left have a very abstract idea of the cost of war.
It's not so much that Zelensky cares about "the fight for his country" (look how Ukraine has treated its Russian-speaking regions since 2014, which it now views as so integral to its unity)...
I believe Zelensky's indignant because it was the US which up to now drove the war forward* and provided him with a jet-setting lifestyle where he got to LARP as commander-in-chief and schmooze with global leaders. Now the US is turning the tap off and there's a very different proposition on the table (one that will probably lead to him being exiled, overthrown, or voted out soon enough).
And this is a point that needs stressing. To Zelensky it's "the US" fucking him over -- Trump and Vance just happen to be its current representatives. That's what he's lashing out at: the current pivot as a betrayal from the ally that got him into this mess to begin with. Of course, that's no excuse for his smug entitled antics; he's known what was up for at least a month and has had time to adjust. Undermining the heads of the US Govt in front of the cameras was the most cynical, theatrical, cluster-B move imaginable.
*Zelensky was ready to negotiate a peace deal with the Russians in 2022 shortly after the war but US-NATO sent then-British PM Boris Johnson to convince him otherwise. This is something the MSM keeps schtum about but is widely acknowledged in foreign policy circles. So it's not that Zelensky isn't patriotic; it's just that this was never really about pursuing a higher, noble fight on behalf of the Ukrainian people. It was about doing the bidding of his Western benefactors.
The actions of NATO & EU are a bit mystifying for me - I wonder if they have been acting in good faith. Did they dangle the NATO membership carrot without ever intending to give it - just to tick off Russia & tip them into a sapping war? here is a conspiracy theory about this.
I don't think that's far-fetched at all. What we saw was a convergence of interests.
The military-industrial complex pounced on an opportunity to sell arms and sign lucrative contracts. The neocon deep state meanwhile genuinely thought that provoking Russia into starting a war would impoverish Russia’s economy, turn the world against Russia, and — most crucially — turn the Russian people against Putin (of course, it hasn't turned out that way).
These deep-state actors are obsessed with string-pulling and shaping the world according to the post-Cold War ideological objective of establishing American unipolarity. This is then euphemistically sold to the public as “spreading democracy overseas”.
With the USAID revelations I hope people can start to wake up to the reality of what the American deep state really gets up to. It needs to go further though — the layers of the onion need to be pulled back. There is covert shit going on with Iran, for example, with US-Israel provoking the regime there so there can be a pretext for military action.
I thought it was an excellent show. I noticed a couple of things while watching you dissect it. One, I noticed the tired and exasperated way Zelensky listed all the American presidents he had worked with. He sounded put upon and exasperated. I interpret that behavior as contempt for our very democratic principles. As if our system of government is a unique trouble to HIM.
To me, it represents the way a lot of dictatorial people think. A good system functioning as it should (we haven't been taken over by a king or dictator yet- regardless of what the histrionic media claims) thwarts easy takeover and manipulation. Our lack of a dictator or sole authority makes it far more difficult for a man like Zelensky to co-opt our country for his purposes. It angers him and I think many of us saw for the first time what a low opinion he has of our country- and our nice ocean.
Also, I appreciate you pointing out Zelensky's semi-veiled "threat". With respect to WW2, America did try to stay out of the global conflicts until Pearl Harbor was bombed. So Zelensky taking his moment in the White House to tell us what we will feel later was very much something that should have set off any president's alarm bells. Clearly it did with Trump and I think Trump was right to pounce right then. What Zelensky did was not much different than a cruel man telling a woman who has rejected him, "You can say no to me now, but later you won't." Anyone with half a brain would see that for the incredibly dangerous threat it is, and expect the woman and anyone who loved her to act swiftly and protectively. I feel like Trump and Vance did just that. As a citizen, I feel much safer seeing that protectiveness. I am glad it didn't happen behind closed doors. I like knowing that Trump and Vance are on high alert to threats to our country and do not take even petulant threats lightly.
I deeply appreciate you highlighting the VIRTUOUS masculinity that was on display during the press conference.
It shouldn't have happened at all and if it did, it should have been private. That said, Zelenskyy has a hell of a nerve. We have supported his country to the tune of billions of dollars and he is snotty to the President. I don't care what the MSM says about it. It was outrageous behavior. My father always said that if you want someone to help you be polite. I also want to know how much Zelenskyy has taken for his personal use.
just did a "search" on this (replies) page for "coke" and "cocaine" and got zero hits (yes, that's a bad pun I'm proud of ;-) but, really, the dude wasn't jacked and pie-eyed? these "elites" view the drug like candy (ask the Burisma board "member" (another bad pun) who lost a bag in the White House). too rich, how Seer Keer's gonna "protect" Ukraine! in what universe, you git?
I listened to the entire 50 minutes and contrary to legacy media I think Trump and Vance showed great restraint. The snot-nose little brat was aching to get spanked!
In the short term, the Oval Office Meltdown gave the public a rare view of what frequently goes on behind closed doors. And yes, it should have stayed behind closed doors. The political commentary predicably fell along the usual partisan lines with the usual agendas being served. The claim that the "meltdown" was a calculated move by Trump/Vance seems unlikely, especially when you watch the 50-minute tape. If anything, Zelinskyy may have had such a game plan. I don't know but I believe that the parties will sign a "minerals deal" in the near future because its good for both parties. Diplomacy is often one step at a time.
I disagree about the minerals deal being a good thing. It was a carrot that ass refused to eat. Let his corrupt but oh so brave little Ukraine fight it out to oblivion.
What better long-term security than American mining operations and a DMZ?
Bground info shows that Zelnsky was briefed by Democrats behind the scenes to refuse the deal and they staged this fiasco as a pressure stunt with Yermak (his COS). The main issue was that he was supposed to be in DC to sign the deal - but that just shows he was duplicitous from the start - or he flipflops from day to day.
Zelensky acted like a spoiled child. It was embarrassing to watch the president and vice president forced to "discipline" him in public because he wouldn't straighten up and behave himself. If Zelensky had threatened to hold his breath until he got what he wanted, I wouldn't have been surprised at all.
So, no, it didn't change my opinion because I already had a very low opinion of Zelensky. He's an idiot and a grifter and not to be trusted.
If he had held his breath, I would have shaken my head and walked out.
Brats don't deserve the time of day.
My impression of the oval office incident is that Zelinsky was being a little bitch from the start. He was trying to act tough and impersonated resolve, but he just looked weak and petulant. He clearly missed the point that Trump and JD's were in control of the outcome and that they can't be played like Biden. Zelinsky confirmed that he is just a little bitch with zero diplomatic skills. More shockingly is how widespread self loathing has become among the American people. It is offensive to me how so many of our people belive it is our obligation to "save" anyone who can portray themselves as a victim and how strength and national pride are embarrassing to them. Trump is a hero and should be praised for putting that little turd in his place.
For me, it didn't change my take.
Zelenskyy came with an agenda not quite in sync with Donald Trump's. That doesn't surprise me, but he did not navigate the disconnect at all well.
He wanted to push points then and there which were not germane to the agreement. Questions like formal security guarantees and addressing the repatriation of abducted Ukrainian children are not illegitimate questions, but they are not pertinent to the framework deal that was the primary reason for having the meeting.
Bring such things up during the presser? Sure. As a basic tactical proposition Zelenskyy needed to at least mention them so as not to concede anything by silence. However, since the framework deal explicitly provided for additional follow up talks to put the actual meat on the bones, harping on these tangential points during the presser was bad tactics.
Corporate media didn't help with insipid bait questions like "do you (Zelenskyy) feel the US is on your side?" I will say that Zelenskyy had enough presence at that point to take his cue from Trump on answering that, although he then couldn't stop with a simple yes and had to drag in all of his talking points all over again.
The media is doing what the media always does: push narrative over fact. As has become common everywhere these days, ideological purity is always being demanded. It is required that one support Ukraine as the good guys, and therefore it is required that one want Russia exterminated because they are the bad guys.
Zelenskyy obviously feels this way, but he's been dealing with three years of attritional war, so that should not surprise anyone.
Corporate media is denouncing Trump and Vance because they dare to reshape and reframe the narrative.
Trump's view of foreign policy is to move everything into the economic sphere and "do a deal." Some will say that's a naive and simplistic view of the world, but I challenge anyone to explain why moving the conflict between Ukraine and Russia into the economic sphere is not a good idea.
Corporate media will not abide any deviation from their established narrative, nor, it seems, will the leaders in the EU.
I read this morning where a Nordic fuel supplier is refusing to service US Naval vessels because of this contratemps over Ukraine. I'm not sure that I'm ready to support Mike Lee's call for the US to withdraw from NATO, but if Europe doesn't find a way to put their attitudes in neutral pretty damn fast that's exactly what's going to happen.
All this because Donald Trump is willing to talk with Putin and look for an off-ramp to finally end this war.
When did the pursuit of peace become a bad thing?
Leaving NATO is the biggest of big sticks and the Norwegian stunt is idiotic... but US is so NATO entangled it cannot up & leave within a 4-year timespan - look at NORAD being integrated in Canadian territory etc. US would lose their ballistic early warning radars etc.
Plus the access to bases in Germany & Med... Not going to happen at least in the short term.
NORAD isn't a part of NATO, but is a joint command between the US and Canada. The US could leave NATO tomorrow and NORAD would not be impacted at all.
As NORAD exists to provide air defense for Canada as well, it seems unlikely--particularly in light of all that is being said about Russia--that Canada will want to discontinue the joint air defense posture.
The US has supplementary Status Of Forces Agreements (SOFA) with most if not all NATO countries, and certainly ones with major bases (e.g., Rammstein, in Germany). Withdrawing from NATO would not necessarily impact base access, certainly not in the near term. Long term that's a bit problematic.
I expect this behavior around any negotiations, normally behind closed doors. the fact that this started to unravel after 40 mins in front of the entire press is pretty insane. to me Zelensky looks panicked and for good reason. he gambled with his own country to follow the West and it blew up in his face. he knows that any deal Ukraine gets will be worse that the one negotiated in Istanbul in early 2022. his own generals and advisors are apparently jumping ship.
Zelensky is a man about to walk the plank and he knows it.
Haven’t caught this week’s episode yet, but I did watch the whole conference in the Oval Office.
I initially caught the hot moments at the end, and my initial reaction was split. I was happy to see Zelensky being taken to task, because the Europeans and the American Left (including the Neocons) have treated him like he’s some hybrid of Alexander the Great, Jesus Christ, and John Lennon. I’ve had nothing but bad hits from Zelensky since I started seeing him wearing that faux military costume even when there’s no need for it. Still I thought it was a bit excessive to have Trump and Vance piling on to him.
After watching the whole thing, I’m left with the impression that Zelensky is significantly more incompetent than I initially thought (Though I suspect after dealing with a carrot in the Oval Office before Trump he may have had reason to expect it to work). All he had to do was put a tie on, smile, keep his mouth shut, then thank everyone on his way out. That would have given him a better security guarantee than he’ll be able to manage because it would have put American citizens and economic interests right in Ukraine’s back yard. He couldn’t manage a single one of those things. He tried to dictate moral and strategic terms from a position of unbelievable weakness.
If someone did that to me in my home after I had provided them with survival-level succor, I would have been more confused by the arrogance and stupidity than I would have been angry. Of course I still would have told him to get the fuck out.
Ukranians/Russians/Eastern Europeans can never take yes for an answer.
Zelensky is probably being coached by the neocons from the Obama-Clinton cabal. I am certain that this whole endeavor is a money laundering operation. This goes back to at least 2014. Zelensky was stupidly treated like a movie star during the Biden years. He thinks he can prolong this like Vietnam, and the money machine will keep dispensing. He was arrogant, argumentative, rude, and disrespectful to a country that has already given them hundreds of billions. They have *sold our weapons on the black market*. Our weapons are now in the hands of terrorists and drug cartels. I think we should leave NATO. Let the decadent Europeans who sneer at us while we pay for their national defense figure it out. Fuck these people.
Groceries are too expensive. Fuel is too expensive. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are suffering from drug addiction and chronic health problems. Our kids are illiterate. Young people can't afford home ownership. We have just now stopped an invasion of our country, with lottery winnings for the invaders. Enough. The United States has paid for the whole world for too long. I simply don't care anymore. You put the oxygen mask on yourself before attempting to help your seatmate.
Yes. This is a good book that was predictably panned by the British mainstream. https://www.amazon.com/Hubris-American-Origins-Russias-against/dp/0674299078/ref=mp_s_a_1_1
Just a hint: with Amazon URLs (heck with any URL), you can cut off everything after the first question mark. The rest is information that Amazon uses to determine how you got to the page.
Yea sorry was in a rush and on the phone so couldn’t edit it out yet.
Intellectually, I feel grateful to Trump and Vance, proud of their leadership, and relieved that they are not going to continue pouring money into a corrupt foreign country and risking a bigger war for no good reason.
Emotionally, the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I kind of regret having watched it. I am a very confrontation-averse person, and while I can see that Zelensky was behaving badly the whole time, still it made me so uncomfortable to watch Vance requesting expressions of gratitude and Trump talking over Zelensky (who was obviously interrupting very rudely). Everyone got too heated. I don’t appreciate all the X headlines of “Watch T and V DESTROY Z!!!”
Then my husband told me that he was inspired by Trump’s methods (eg. repeating a simple point over and over until it is heard) and plans to use them with our own young children! We have masculine leaders in our White House, and they are going to take a fatherly method of discipline to troublemakers, and it is going to make many women squirm to watch it. As a squirming woman, I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
I do wonder what Zelensky’s end game was. Did he honestly believe Trump would change their deal in the middle of a press conference?
Trump was completely restrained and conciliatory for 40 minutes. Zelensky acted like a rude entitled pouty teenager. But when he called Vice President Vance “JD” and condescendingly “schooled” him on Russia, there was nothing left for Trump to do. What would have been humiliating for the US was to allow his rude antagonistic behavior to go unchecked.
You did a great job with last night’s show. My opinion certainly didn’t change because I already agreed with you in full. If you need even more proof how deranged Zelensky and those taking his side in this diplomatic debacle actually are, you need to watch today’s Rubin Report. Dave is showing clips most of us have not yet seen from before the actual meeting to what happened after. Most interesting so far are the remarks made by Lindsay Graham ripping Zelensky several new ones!
I very much appreciated your framing -- that they had already been in talks, that they'd already come to an agreement, that this press confab was supposed to be ceremonial, and therefore it was inappropriate for Zelensky to attempt to litigate it further.
Watching the exchanges in that light, it was evident that Trump and Vance had already had these very discussions with Zelensky behind closed doors, and that Trump and Vance had already told him: "you have no cards to play; take the deal."
Zelensky was Not Happy with that at all. I can't say I blame him. Whether he's acting in good faith or bad, being told by his primary benefactor to give up the fight for his country is a kick in the teeth. However, trying to start the same arguments right there in front of everyone was not appropriate. I'm not sure what he hoped would happen. Was the admin supposed to say, "you know, you're right. Let's go back and change the terms"?
As soon as it was evident that Zelensky wasn't going to let it go, maybe Trump and Vance should have refrained from responding to his arguments and shut down the event sooner than they did. But given that Zelensky was behaving in an unexpected manner, I can see how they'd not know how to act in the moment.
The strong reaction in the media was going to happen regardless of what happened. If it had all gone smoothly, they'd still have found a pretext to clutch their pearls and dial it all up to 11.
I have been baffled by the whole Ukraine thing. It's weird to me that the right is calling to end military support and the left is saying "all the munniez!" especially since Russia is involved. Back in the day, the right hated Russia, and no former KGB agent would be given the benefit of the doubt. Supporting the cause of liberty -- for anyone -- was as American as apple pie.
Is it because the left has gone all-in for Ukraine? Is it because Biden was supplying the military support, and it's almost certain there are terrible shenanigans going on? Is the right super-disillusioned after supporting the War in Iraq, which wasn't what it seemed to be?
Telling Europe to step up and take care of it is probably a good idea at this point. They've been enjoying our nuclear umbrella while spitting in our faces, and it's time for them to look out for their own interests instead of tearing down their nuclear reactors so they can become MOAR dependent on Russian gas.
OTOH, I don't like what I see here, though it might not be what it seems: https://x.com/KareemRifai/status/1896301016334909918
We're stopping cyber action against Russia? Did we make a secret deal with Putin to let him keep what he conquered in Ukraine -- but only that -- and that we'll stop the cyber action as long as he doesn't cross any more lines?
"We're aligned with Russia now" is the narrative, and whatever you think of the Ukraine situation, I don't want to align with Russia, either. Putin is a psychopath with imperial aspirations.
What's actually going on?
We aren’t stopping cyber action against Russia. Read more carefully, we’re stopping cyber attacks against Russia. Your X source is known to align with (anyone outside the U.S.)
If you ever took the time to research all of the Russia investigation predicates, court proceedings, and lack of evidence you would realize the U.S. intelligence community is no better than Putin’s. Our intelligence community focused its warfare on American citizens to benefit one party.
I’d say, as someone somewhat on the right, I self identify as small ‘l’ libertarian, and have always been anti-war unless we are attacked.
You are exactly right the right are disillusioned about foreign wars because of Iraq. Also, families of people on the right have a number of friends and family that were wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan, and are well aware of the cost of war in human suffering, most of the left have a very abstract idea of the cost of war.
It's not so much that Zelensky cares about "the fight for his country" (look how Ukraine has treated its Russian-speaking regions since 2014, which it now views as so integral to its unity)...
I believe Zelensky's indignant because it was the US which up to now drove the war forward* and provided him with a jet-setting lifestyle where he got to LARP as commander-in-chief and schmooze with global leaders. Now the US is turning the tap off and there's a very different proposition on the table (one that will probably lead to him being exiled, overthrown, or voted out soon enough).
And this is a point that needs stressing. To Zelensky it's "the US" fucking him over -- Trump and Vance just happen to be its current representatives. That's what he's lashing out at: the current pivot as a betrayal from the ally that got him into this mess to begin with. Of course, that's no excuse for his smug entitled antics; he's known what was up for at least a month and has had time to adjust. Undermining the heads of the US Govt in front of the cameras was the most cynical, theatrical, cluster-B move imaginable.
*Zelensky was ready to negotiate a peace deal with the Russians in 2022 shortly after the war but US-NATO sent then-British PM Boris Johnson to convince him otherwise. This is something the MSM keeps schtum about but is widely acknowledged in foreign policy circles. So it's not that Zelensky isn't patriotic; it's just that this was never really about pursuing a higher, noble fight on behalf of the Ukrainian people. It was about doing the bidding of his Western benefactors.
The actions of NATO & EU are a bit mystifying for me - I wonder if they have been acting in good faith. Did they dangle the NATO membership carrot without ever intending to give it - just to tick off Russia & tip them into a sapping war? here is a conspiracy theory about this.
I don't think that's far-fetched at all. What we saw was a convergence of interests.
The military-industrial complex pounced on an opportunity to sell arms and sign lucrative contracts. The neocon deep state meanwhile genuinely thought that provoking Russia into starting a war would impoverish Russia’s economy, turn the world against Russia, and — most crucially — turn the Russian people against Putin (of course, it hasn't turned out that way).
These deep-state actors are obsessed with string-pulling and shaping the world according to the post-Cold War ideological objective of establishing American unipolarity. This is then euphemistically sold to the public as “spreading democracy overseas”.
With the USAID revelations I hope people can start to wake up to the reality of what the American deep state really gets up to. It needs to go further though — the layers of the onion need to be pulled back. There is covert shit going on with Iran, for example, with US-Israel provoking the regime there so there can be a pretext for military action.
I thought it was an excellent show. I noticed a couple of things while watching you dissect it. One, I noticed the tired and exasperated way Zelensky listed all the American presidents he had worked with. He sounded put upon and exasperated. I interpret that behavior as contempt for our very democratic principles. As if our system of government is a unique trouble to HIM.
To me, it represents the way a lot of dictatorial people think. A good system functioning as it should (we haven't been taken over by a king or dictator yet- regardless of what the histrionic media claims) thwarts easy takeover and manipulation. Our lack of a dictator or sole authority makes it far more difficult for a man like Zelensky to co-opt our country for his purposes. It angers him and I think many of us saw for the first time what a low opinion he has of our country- and our nice ocean.
Also, I appreciate you pointing out Zelensky's semi-veiled "threat". With respect to WW2, America did try to stay out of the global conflicts until Pearl Harbor was bombed. So Zelensky taking his moment in the White House to tell us what we will feel later was very much something that should have set off any president's alarm bells. Clearly it did with Trump and I think Trump was right to pounce right then. What Zelensky did was not much different than a cruel man telling a woman who has rejected him, "You can say no to me now, but later you won't." Anyone with half a brain would see that for the incredibly dangerous threat it is, and expect the woman and anyone who loved her to act swiftly and protectively. I feel like Trump and Vance did just that. As a citizen, I feel much safer seeing that protectiveness. I am glad it didn't happen behind closed doors. I like knowing that Trump and Vance are on high alert to threats to our country and do not take even petulant threats lightly.
I deeply appreciate you highlighting the VIRTUOUS masculinity that was on display during the press conference.
It shouldn't have happened at all and if it did, it should have been private. That said, Zelenskyy has a hell of a nerve. We have supported his country to the tune of billions of dollars and he is snotty to the President. I don't care what the MSM says about it. It was outrageous behavior. My father always said that if you want someone to help you be polite. I also want to know how much Zelenskyy has taken for his personal use.
just did a "search" on this (replies) page for "coke" and "cocaine" and got zero hits (yes, that's a bad pun I'm proud of ;-) but, really, the dude wasn't jacked and pie-eyed? these "elites" view the drug like candy (ask the Burisma board "member" (another bad pun) who lost a bag in the White House). too rich, how Seer Keer's gonna "protect" Ukraine! in what universe, you git?
Two things I just saw: 60% of voters under 40 approve of Trump’s performance according to a Rasmussen poll. Plus the Memory Hole just disgorged this! https://thepostmillennial.com/flashback-biden-grew-angry-with-zelenskys-lack-of-gratitude-in-june-2022
I listened to the entire 50 minutes and contrary to legacy media I think Trump and Vance showed great restraint. The snot-nose little brat was aching to get spanked!