“The God of Vermont” made me laugh. It takes a disordered person to come up with this type of name calling. I am so glad you went no contact. As most of us ever having been involved with a Cluster B noticed is that any conversation or the need for closure just draws us back into the abuse cycle.
“No” is a complete sentence and trust that they suck. Always.
Well said. According to the reading I've done – and my own hard, bitter experience – avoidance is the only strategy that works. Any attempt at "closure" will just result in more abuse. Don't explain, don't denounce, don't say goodbye, don't try to leave on a "good note": just go.
I just had the strangest memory reading this. Well, maybe not THE strangest but I remembered through an accurate lens for the first time in my life. It is this: As a child, about age 7 or so, my father would regularly drive my brother and myself through Baltimore’s red light district. I memorized who the headliners were to impress my father. In order to “be seen” by him and my mother I would stage weekly shows where I mock strip teased behind a curtain. That was normal for me. This memory never made me flinch until just now. The sick inversions that these monsters do to us as children is so difficult to communicate to people. Thank you for sharing the madness. Its helps to see.
Mar 22, 2023·edited Mar 22, 2023Liked by Josh Slocum
I just wanted to validate, first, myself for it being natural, now, in 2023 the year of fucking lunacy, that I hate the word validate. 😂
Second, you. This is a very common thing in recovery, I've found. Something I never actually forgot simply got misfiled. It's like my brain marked it "not important, do not return in general queries." The last time this happened to me, I remembered something that indicated my father is a psychopath (laughing about animal torture). If you'd asked me, "Did you grow up around any psychopaths?" I'd have said, "No, I don't think so. Lots of fucked up people, but nothing that serious." But if you'd said, "Do you know anyone who, even in the company of sane people who are appalled, tells stories of beating cats to death and laughs about it?" I'd have said, "Of course, my dad." I'm not stupid and it's not that I don't know anything about the Dark Triad. The connection just didn't quite get made...until it did.
You're not alone, and this is a typical experience, as unsettling as it may be. Just...wanted to say that.
This is a well executed mindfuc#! Gives proof to my theory that when there is one “crazy” in a relationship the other partner is often an active participant. I spent a lot of my life believing I was crazy or losing my mind due to my mother gaslighting me. I’m very sad to say that my mother’s death 14 years ago was actually a relief. I grieved (hard) for a year because even when you are finally free you miss your shackles and I hadn’t, until then, really thought of myself as separate. I had to build a new me. You’ve done that already and it’s why you can share this. You are free and no longer a member of the circus. Many hugs, Josh.
You know, it's odd how this works out, but there is some truth to what he said in that letter. And, really, it was my mother's writing anyway.
It's true that I hid my feelings about her and then they all spilled out in rage, all at once. But I was hiding my true feelings about my mother from myself, first and primarily. That's how I was able to do what I did.
I did want to help, but really, I wanted the pain to stop and go away more than anything.
The truth is that I haven't actually loved my mother since I was a young teen. I thought I did. And I had tried to love her so many times. But the love died when I first saw all the way through her mask at 13.
There's no avoiding it. What I felt for my mother from that time forward was fear, guilt, and obligation.
Not love.
And that is normal and natural for any child whose mother treated him as mine treated me.
I truly admire you for achieving an understanding of what transpired in your life, which probably wasn’t easy to do… You’re a perfect example of what it looks like to “move on” in spite of a parent’s refusal to acknowledge responsibility or wrongdoing. So inspiring..
I'd like to be astonished that it's so impossible for someone to realize just how abused they are, but I've seen a bpd/narcissist work their "magic" on those in their lives who love them - their children, their spouse/ex-spouse, their sibling, their own parents, their other "best" friends. I was once caught in that web as a best friend. That gave me some distance, but slowly I came realize that instead of helping, I was enabling. That's a shitty pill to swallow - to finally accept that you can't do enough to help them, to make things okay, to fix them. You can't love them enough.
The hard work is all on them - and most either aren't going to recognize or do what it takes to manage their chaotic, unstable inner personality. In my case, she knows. But knowing eventually became another tactic for manipulation.
"It's not my fault; I was born like this."
"I didn’t ask to be like this."
"If I had cancer instead of a mental illness then people would treat me differently. They'd care. They'd be concerned. They would help without me having to become a screaming shrew."
"If you loved me, you would accept me for who I am, for how I am. It's a personality disorder. I can't change who I *am*!"
Mar 22, 2023·edited Mar 22, 2023Liked by Josh Slocum
Took me awhile. Mine was, "Piss off. I can't fix your shit. And you won't ever talk to me like that again. Good luck."
I was her idealized person. But then I started pushing back on the crazy, subtly at first because, you know, still thinking maybe I could help. But the escalation on her end with the others in her life - it was just wrong. You know what happens when you push back. I wasn't "safe" anymore.
One specific thing that stands out (among many, because much of this is familiar to me) is his willfully-distorted interpretation of your necessary and reasonable boundaries as a bad/wrong power grab. I’ve seen this precise distortion/reversal before, followed by escalation to the “this is not a good look for you” threat.
This kind of person only understands misuse of power, guilt-tripping, and threats. There’s never a good-faith effort to communicate, reciprocate, find solutions, or just listen with a modicum of respect. Its just different domination strategies thrown at you to see what sticks.
Wow. Anyone who has not endured the sick abuses that were part of your upbringing will automatically fall for this letter’s intention to doubt your sanity. I’ve experienced the same manipulative family behavior & am looked upon as the black sheep as well. I understand completely.
Wow. Your mother's behaviour was apparently very similar to that of my late grandmother. She eventually died of complications from the vascular dementia she'd been trying to conceal for much of my life, and she made my mother utterly miserable for a very long time - frequently using me, even after I became aware of what she was doing.
We never had to evict the woman from anywhere at least. How ghastly and unbelievably stressful for you.
One of the worst things about having an abusive mother is how easy it is for them to paint the son as the problem and have that accepted. And, if you get angry, it's always you who are the bad guy. This is a problem with abusive women in general. There. I've now exposed myself as a misogynist.
So awful, Josh! So awful. It just goes to show: if you think someone has a Cluster B personality disorder, *do not tell them*. This is a perfect case-in-point.
Reminds me so much of emails from my husband's ex and mother of my stepson, who is without question an abusive narcissist. Responses to her attacks and accusations and criticism elicit replies from her like "I'm tired of being attacked!" and long strings of buzzwords. It's deranging to deal with people like this. They know what to say. They know how to manipulate the situation to always be the victim.
“And ‘not airing your dirty laundry’ is one of the primary ways abusive families get away with their intra-household violence.”
YES. Thank you. If people don’t want others to find out that they’re abusive shitheads, they need to not be abusive shitheads. It’s hardly out of their control. These are choices they consciously make.
Wow, the DARVO here is amazing. I feel myself being pulled in, even though I know your story very well. I expected the letter to *sound* more deranged and unhinged. Instead, the faux-calm and the clear articulation work well to make you question yourself. I am so glad you did NOT go back and apologize.
Thank you for sharing this. People need to see how smart and manipulative some cluster Bs are. It's easy to picture the Cluster Bs at their worst, unhinged moments -- I am reminded of Keri's (sp?) description of her mom threatening suicide on Christmas Day by pretending that she was going to jump into an empty swimming pool. Those moments are comical to the outsider and far LESS dangerous than the ongoing cold calculations and reversals of the BPD, NPD, APD person. It's crazy-making. Not even people from healthy households are immune to accusations of projecting bad intent on to others. Certainly, those of us from Cluster B or similar families are plagued with doubts about ourselves and our motives, and even what we see with our own eyes.
Keep a goin' Josh. You did a remarkable job figuring this out.
"The arson will only engulf you!" I got a degree in English Lit, and I have to admit in my younger days I could see writing with that sort of dramatic flair. I'm in my 50s now, and dramatic flair like this just sounds pretentious and cringe. Setting boundaries and making her question herself is abuse? So interesting how the significant other can adapt to the NPDs and call it normal.
God Almighty, is this kind of bullshit familiar. *shivering*
“The God of Vermont” made me laugh. It takes a disordered person to come up with this type of name calling. I am so glad you went no contact. As most of us ever having been involved with a Cluster B noticed is that any conversation or the need for closure just draws us back into the abuse cycle.
“No” is a complete sentence and trust that they suck. Always.
Well said. According to the reading I've done – and my own hard, bitter experience – avoidance is the only strategy that works. Any attempt at "closure" will just result in more abuse. Don't explain, don't denounce, don't say goodbye, don't try to leave on a "good note": just go.
I just had the strangest memory reading this. Well, maybe not THE strangest but I remembered through an accurate lens for the first time in my life. It is this: As a child, about age 7 or so, my father would regularly drive my brother and myself through Baltimore’s red light district. I memorized who the headliners were to impress my father. In order to “be seen” by him and my mother I would stage weekly shows where I mock strip teased behind a curtain. That was normal for me. This memory never made me flinch until just now. The sick inversions that these monsters do to us as children is so difficult to communicate to people. Thank you for sharing the madness. Its helps to see.
Jesus Christ.
Thank you for typing that out. That will be a help to someone reading this.
I just wanted to validate, first, myself for it being natural, now, in 2023 the year of fucking lunacy, that I hate the word validate. 😂
Second, you. This is a very common thing in recovery, I've found. Something I never actually forgot simply got misfiled. It's like my brain marked it "not important, do not return in general queries." The last time this happened to me, I remembered something that indicated my father is a psychopath (laughing about animal torture). If you'd asked me, "Did you grow up around any psychopaths?" I'd have said, "No, I don't think so. Lots of fucked up people, but nothing that serious." But if you'd said, "Do you know anyone who, even in the company of sane people who are appalled, tells stories of beating cats to death and laughs about it?" I'd have said, "Of course, my dad." I'm not stupid and it's not that I don't know anything about the Dark Triad. The connection just didn't quite get made...until it did.
You're not alone, and this is a typical experience, as unsettling as it may be. Just...wanted to say that.
I'd like to validate your hatred of the word "validate".
This is a well executed mindfuc#! Gives proof to my theory that when there is one “crazy” in a relationship the other partner is often an active participant. I spent a lot of my life believing I was crazy or losing my mind due to my mother gaslighting me. I’m very sad to say that my mother’s death 14 years ago was actually a relief. I grieved (hard) for a year because even when you are finally free you miss your shackles and I hadn’t, until then, really thought of myself as separate. I had to build a new me. You’ve done that already and it’s why you can share this. You are free and no longer a member of the circus. Many hugs, Josh.
This post has been updated to include visual proof of my mother's abusive behavior.
Evidently, those two never considered the actual INTENT of your initial outreach. They just immediately shifted into attack/defense mode.
You know, it's odd how this works out, but there is some truth to what he said in that letter. And, really, it was my mother's writing anyway.
It's true that I hid my feelings about her and then they all spilled out in rage, all at once. But I was hiding my true feelings about my mother from myself, first and primarily. That's how I was able to do what I did.
I did want to help, but really, I wanted the pain to stop and go away more than anything.
The truth is that I haven't actually loved my mother since I was a young teen. I thought I did. And I had tried to love her so many times. But the love died when I first saw all the way through her mask at 13.
There's no avoiding it. What I felt for my mother from that time forward was fear, guilt, and obligation.
Not love.
And that is normal and natural for any child whose mother treated him as mine treated me.
I truly admire you for achieving an understanding of what transpired in your life, which probably wasn’t easy to do… You’re a perfect example of what it looks like to “move on” in spite of a parent’s refusal to acknowledge responsibility or wrongdoing. So inspiring..
I'd like to be astonished that it's so impossible for someone to realize just how abused they are, but I've seen a bpd/narcissist work their "magic" on those in their lives who love them - their children, their spouse/ex-spouse, their sibling, their own parents, their other "best" friends. I was once caught in that web as a best friend. That gave me some distance, but slowly I came realize that instead of helping, I was enabling. That's a shitty pill to swallow - to finally accept that you can't do enough to help them, to make things okay, to fix them. You can't love them enough.
The hard work is all on them - and most either aren't going to recognize or do what it takes to manage their chaotic, unstable inner personality. In my case, she knows. But knowing eventually became another tactic for manipulation.
"It's not my fault; I was born like this."
"I didn’t ask to be like this."
"If I had cancer instead of a mental illness then people would treat me differently. They'd care. They'd be concerned. They would help without me having to become a screaming shrew."
"If you loved me, you would accept me for who I am, for how I am. It's a personality disorder. I can't change who I *am*!"
My answer to all those pleas:
Fuck off. Die alone in misery.
Took me awhile. Mine was, "Piss off. I can't fix your shit. And you won't ever talk to me like that again. Good luck."
I was her idealized person. But then I started pushing back on the crazy, subtly at first because, you know, still thinking maybe I could help. But the escalation on her end with the others in her life - it was just wrong. You know what happens when you push back. I wasn't "safe" anymore.
Bravo for getting out. It takes courage.
One specific thing that stands out (among many, because much of this is familiar to me) is his willfully-distorted interpretation of your necessary and reasonable boundaries as a bad/wrong power grab. I’ve seen this precise distortion/reversal before, followed by escalation to the “this is not a good look for you” threat.
This kind of person only understands misuse of power, guilt-tripping, and threats. There’s never a good-faith effort to communicate, reciprocate, find solutions, or just listen with a modicum of respect. Its just different domination strategies thrown at you to see what sticks.
Wow. Anyone who has not endured the sick abuses that were part of your upbringing will automatically fall for this letter’s intention to doubt your sanity. I’ve experienced the same manipulative family behavior & am looked upon as the black sheep as well. I understand completely.
Yet more proof that “No good deed goes unpunished.”
Wow. Your mother's behaviour was apparently very similar to that of my late grandmother. She eventually died of complications from the vascular dementia she'd been trying to conceal for much of my life, and she made my mother utterly miserable for a very long time - frequently using me, even after I became aware of what she was doing.
We never had to evict the woman from anywhere at least. How ghastly and unbelievably stressful for you.
One of the worst things about having an abusive mother is how easy it is for them to paint the son as the problem and have that accepted. And, if you get angry, it's always you who are the bad guy. This is a problem with abusive women in general. There. I've now exposed myself as a misogynist.
The Amber Heard trial was scary. We – not just as a society, I mean humans in general – are very, very bad at detecting female abusiveness.
So awful, Josh! So awful. It just goes to show: if you think someone has a Cluster B personality disorder, *do not tell them*. This is a perfect case-in-point.
Reminds me so much of emails from my husband's ex and mother of my stepson, who is without question an abusive narcissist. Responses to her attacks and accusations and criticism elicit replies from her like "I'm tired of being attacked!" and long strings of buzzwords. It's deranging to deal with people like this. They know what to say. They know how to manipulate the situation to always be the victim.
“And ‘not airing your dirty laundry’ is one of the primary ways abusive families get away with their intra-household violence.”
YES. Thank you. If people don’t want others to find out that they’re abusive shitheads, they need to not be abusive shitheads. It’s hardly out of their control. These are choices they consciously make.
Wow, the DARVO here is amazing. I feel myself being pulled in, even though I know your story very well. I expected the letter to *sound* more deranged and unhinged. Instead, the faux-calm and the clear articulation work well to make you question yourself. I am so glad you did NOT go back and apologize.
Thank you for sharing this. People need to see how smart and manipulative some cluster Bs are. It's easy to picture the Cluster Bs at their worst, unhinged moments -- I am reminded of Keri's (sp?) description of her mom threatening suicide on Christmas Day by pretending that she was going to jump into an empty swimming pool. Those moments are comical to the outsider and far LESS dangerous than the ongoing cold calculations and reversals of the BPD, NPD, APD person. It's crazy-making. Not even people from healthy households are immune to accusations of projecting bad intent on to others. Certainly, those of us from Cluster B or similar families are plagued with doubts about ourselves and our motives, and even what we see with our own eyes.
Keep a goin' Josh. You did a remarkable job figuring this out.
"The arson will only engulf you!" I got a degree in English Lit, and I have to admit in my younger days I could see writing with that sort of dramatic flair. I'm in my 50s now, and dramatic flair like this just sounds pretentious and cringe. Setting boundaries and making her question herself is abuse? So interesting how the significant other can adapt to the NPDs and call it normal.