I know I'm supposed to "validate myself" and all that bullshit (I hear you in my head, therapist). But nah. I do, actually, need *some* validation from other humans. I'm a social creature. Josh Slocum alone is not enough for Josh Slocum. I can't provide all my own needs.
So I thank you all very much for making it clear that you understand what I'm saying. Seriously--it really helps.
As you know, because you are the number one person I discuss this stuff with, I try very hard not to do the competition thing of who has it worse, men or women. There are definitely areas where each sex has it worse.
But in this case? Remember the story from my previous employer about the guy who would not give me an answer of whether or not to send everyone their own copy of a thing or send them a link to the SharePoint?
And it turned out that he was avoiding giving me a definite answer because in his culture, for a man to answer a woman's question definitively is very rude. And that whole thing ended with my telling him that if he didn't say "copy" or "SharePoint" I would loop our boss into the call? If he said one word that wasn't either of those two words?
Yes, that happens on customer service calls as well. So I maintain that they're even more annoying for me than they are for you. And we should probably avoid working together on these topics, like if I end up moving closer to you and have to set up my own Internet out there, because we would likely end up going postal together because God knows we would have justification. 🤣🤣🤣
I heard a commercial recently while listening to a live stream...don't remember the company's name. But, I distinctly remember the announcer saying: "And our customer service is all based right here in the United States!"
It's been my experience that the home grown can be just as bad. Just because you can understand them doesn't mean they're going to help you. You're probably going to get an "attitude,"
I can appreciate what you are saying quite a bit. Cultural disconnects are so much more than what most people think it is. Speaking another language is not just learning words, it is so much more in tone, cadence, courteousness, and cultural references. As a foreigner you do not know the minute details.
I think companies and larger corporations would be much better off if they understood service not as something that causes cost, but that is indeed service to the customer and for that it needs to be effective, helpful, and within the right cultural context.
Having a service person with a mismatched cultural background can indeed cause frustration. On both sides. And no-one is really to blame but the company who allows this mismatch.
I am clearly a foreigner that was raised German. It took me a long time to get to the level in English speaking I am in now.
Once my British boss said to me: "I suggest you change the title."
I heard: "I would change the title, but it is fully up to you whether you want to change it or not." I did not change the title and my boss got furious with me. What was my mistake? I translated the word suggest literally to "vorschlagen". Which in German means that it is an idea that someone proposes and it it is fully up to you to use it; no pressure. I did not know that in England the word suggest is used in the context of "you better do it or you will get fired".
It is even worse when you talk to people from very drastically different cultural backgrounds. I have the hardest times with people from certain countries in Africa, but also Italians or Indian people have a way of talking that triggers me every time. Luckily I now know that it is communication style based on culture and not personally. And many of my colleagues at work have also gained more experience with German or American culture and we now get along just fine. The learning curve was just hard to surmount.
It is sometimes still bad. For example, Germans are overly direct nearing on being rude. One of my team members spoke up in a meeting against one of the bosses. She was called out later for having responded rudely and I did not hear it that way, at all. For me, she was just assertive and I felt it was appropriate to be in that situations. I neglected (again) that many Americans prefer a softer communication style in particular from people that rank lower.
My dad used to say, "lo barato sale caro" (the cheap is expensive). In my 57 years (30 in the high tech world), I have seen this countless times. I agree with you (well, what I infer you to be saying in your 2nd paragraph) that customer service isn't something to be $ scrimped on because its downstream affects are unfavorable to a company's customer preference and affinity.
I had created one of those poster-sided things that is printed on two sides, then folded up and put in the box with the server. The instructions showed how to cable-up the head unit to the JBODs (just a box of discs). The instructions, if you don't mind me saying so, were crystal clear.
In Hong Kong they couldn't get their setup to work. They'd hired a company to rack-up the servers, then the customer was supposed to install the software. But it wasn't working.
They're on the phone with our engineers for days. One engineer is on his way to the airport to Hong Kong when we find out that the original crew had wired the head unit wrong -- contrary to the instructions -- but nobody questioned it because it would violate social rules about rank and deference. Our guys literally had to say "take a photo of the wiring."
I'm glad to live in a culture where (usually) the n00b is entitled to ask whether something done by a higher-up should be double-checked. If you don't prioritize Excellence over Caste, you definitely won't get Excellence.
"2. Their inappropriate confidence causes them to speak much faster than their fluency level allows and much faster than native speakers."
Thank you for articulating and affirming an enormous frustration I've had for ... decades now? I find myself always thinking the same thing :: "Why are they speaking so fast? Please slow it down."
I always thought maybe I have a tin ear when it comes to East Asian accents, specifically those from India (I rarely have trouble with English spoken by Chinese people, for example). In the best of scenarios during tech support calls with presumably Indian folks, I seem to grasp each word a beat or two after it's spoken, often having to close my eyes and slightly bow my head in concentration while listening. Add to that the 2x-speed delivery and (often) wrong syllable emphasis, and I'm out. I just can't parse a damned thing.
Monique, it's never been you. It's not you, and it's not me. It's them.
I have to give the same mental concentration you do--with the same head movement, closing my eyes, etc. We are having to work doubly hard to supply ourselves with the cues they won't provide.
Reminder to consider just hitting the "for Spanish/Espanol hit X" button. Anyone servicing the Spanish line will also speak English and as a Latino/a will be courteous enough not to dispute your "oops - can you help me anyway?" request. Try it - you'll like it.
It does work but it's frustrating to have to do that because the companies should not be pushing us to "hack" their customer service systems. Especially when some of these companies provide phone and internet- 2 things essential to a functioning American infrastructure. I am getting closer to being ok with the government stepping in and insisting that if a company provides something that could reasonably categorized as infrastructure- they have to provide American-based customer service.
The only "east Asian" country that US-based companies use for call centres that I know of is the Philippines (usually considered southeast Asian).
In my experience (which is limited to a series of calls to sort a Microsoft issue) they have fairly Americanised accents and are coherent, but the speaking too quickly thing definitely tracks.
It infuriates me that so many US companies have gone to foreign call centers for customer service and support for the sole purpose of maximizing their profits at the expense of their customers. It’s like “hey, buy our products and if you have any problems with them afterwards fuck you and best of luck with customer service!”
Twenty years ago I worked as an Oracle DBA for a small telecom. Their platform ran on Oracle.
As every on-call techie knows the worst calls happen at zero-dark-thirty over a weekend.
"Database down, we're losing money by the minute" was the gist of the call.
Called Oracle support, connected with their India support center. I've worked with H1B hires most of my tech career but the atrocious accent and general inability to comprehend prevented a timely resolution. Escalation was a farce.
Meanwhile, all the C-level poohbahs are flogging me mercilessly on a conference call.
Problem solved when Oracle support rolled to Australia. Communication at last, with an Aussie accent.
At the time Oracle support cost the company $500k a year. The company received a partial refund.
Could we stop the globalist greed, bring call centers back to the U.S. and stop hiring East Asian ESL's?! I had one, after he continuously interrupted me, arrogantly say to me, "Will you let me finish?" He was the supervisor I had requested after not getting anywhere with the original one from the Philippines. Serious balls.
First of all, it's hard to understand a foreign language over the phone. You can't see the lips, you can't see the facial cues, you aren't getting the full range of sound.
Second, when people learn languages, they often concentrate on using the right words or getting the grammar right, but what they should learn first of all is pronunciation. Natives can figure out what you meant if you get the word order a little wrong, but when we can't even tell what words they were using? No chance.
Third, they should switch to text-based tech support with Ai translation so that there's less misunderstanding. You type in English, Ai translates to their language, they respond in their language, the Ai renders it in English. There will still be odd phrases and things, but at least the medium is mutually intelligible.
I understand that companies don't want to pay the American wage premium. But they really need to consider that their first job is Don't Frustrate The Customer. Maybe too many in management are clinical narcissists, so they can't imagine what it's like on the receiving end.
My condolences. Stuff like this turns us all into Luddites.
I have worked with many “East Asians” over the years. It has always come down to me saying “if I can’t understand you, whether due to accent or speed, then I’m going to make assumptions, and that will NOT work in your favor.” Thankfully they were not call center employees, but it did get my point across. Alas, that doesn’t seem to work with support lines. ☹️
I know I'm supposed to "validate myself" and all that bullshit (I hear you in my head, therapist). But nah. I do, actually, need *some* validation from other humans. I'm a social creature. Josh Slocum alone is not enough for Josh Slocum. I can't provide all my own needs.
So I thank you all very much for making it clear that you understand what I'm saying. Seriously--it really helps.
As you know, because you are the number one person I discuss this stuff with, I try very hard not to do the competition thing of who has it worse, men or women. There are definitely areas where each sex has it worse.
But in this case? Remember the story from my previous employer about the guy who would not give me an answer of whether or not to send everyone their own copy of a thing or send them a link to the SharePoint?
And it turned out that he was avoiding giving me a definite answer because in his culture, for a man to answer a woman's question definitively is very rude. And that whole thing ended with my telling him that if he didn't say "copy" or "SharePoint" I would loop our boss into the call? If he said one word that wasn't either of those two words?
Yes, that happens on customer service calls as well. So I maintain that they're even more annoying for me than they are for you. And we should probably avoid working together on these topics, like if I end up moving closer to you and have to set up my own Internet out there, because we would likely end up going postal together because God knows we would have justification. 🤣🤣🤣
I heard a commercial recently while listening to a live stream...don't remember the company's name. But, I distinctly remember the announcer saying: "And our customer service is all based right here in the United States!"
Take my money.
It's been my experience that the home grown can be just as bad. Just because you can understand them doesn't mean they're going to help you. You're probably going to get an "attitude,"
I can appreciate what you are saying quite a bit. Cultural disconnects are so much more than what most people think it is. Speaking another language is not just learning words, it is so much more in tone, cadence, courteousness, and cultural references. As a foreigner you do not know the minute details.
I think companies and larger corporations would be much better off if they understood service not as something that causes cost, but that is indeed service to the customer and for that it needs to be effective, helpful, and within the right cultural context.
Having a service person with a mismatched cultural background can indeed cause frustration. On both sides. And no-one is really to blame but the company who allows this mismatch.
I am clearly a foreigner that was raised German. It took me a long time to get to the level in English speaking I am in now.
Once my British boss said to me: "I suggest you change the title."
I heard: "I would change the title, but it is fully up to you whether you want to change it or not." I did not change the title and my boss got furious with me. What was my mistake? I translated the word suggest literally to "vorschlagen". Which in German means that it is an idea that someone proposes and it it is fully up to you to use it; no pressure. I did not know that in England the word suggest is used in the context of "you better do it or you will get fired".
It is even worse when you talk to people from very drastically different cultural backgrounds. I have the hardest times with people from certain countries in Africa, but also Italians or Indian people have a way of talking that triggers me every time. Luckily I now know that it is communication style based on culture and not personally. And many of my colleagues at work have also gained more experience with German or American culture and we now get along just fine. The learning curve was just hard to surmount.
It is sometimes still bad. For example, Germans are overly direct nearing on being rude. One of my team members spoke up in a meeting against one of the bosses. She was called out later for having responded rudely and I did not hear it that way, at all. For me, she was just assertive and I felt it was appropriate to be in that situations. I neglected (again) that many Americans prefer a softer communication style in particular from people that rank lower.
My dad used to say, "lo barato sale caro" (the cheap is expensive). In my 57 years (30 in the high tech world), I have seen this countless times. I agree with you (well, what I infer you to be saying in your 2nd paragraph) that customer service isn't something to be $ scrimped on because its downstream affects are unfavorable to a company's customer preference and affinity.
Cultural differences can really bite.
I had created one of those poster-sided things that is printed on two sides, then folded up and put in the box with the server. The instructions showed how to cable-up the head unit to the JBODs (just a box of discs). The instructions, if you don't mind me saying so, were crystal clear.
In Hong Kong they couldn't get their setup to work. They'd hired a company to rack-up the servers, then the customer was supposed to install the software. But it wasn't working.
They're on the phone with our engineers for days. One engineer is on his way to the airport to Hong Kong when we find out that the original crew had wired the head unit wrong -- contrary to the instructions -- but nobody questioned it because it would violate social rules about rank and deference. Our guys literally had to say "take a photo of the wiring."
I'm glad to live in a culture where (usually) the n00b is entitled to ask whether something done by a higher-up should be double-checked. If you don't prioritize Excellence over Caste, you definitely won't get Excellence.
"2. Their inappropriate confidence causes them to speak much faster than their fluency level allows and much faster than native speakers."
Thank you for articulating and affirming an enormous frustration I've had for ... decades now? I find myself always thinking the same thing :: "Why are they speaking so fast? Please slow it down."
I always thought maybe I have a tin ear when it comes to East Asian accents, specifically those from India (I rarely have trouble with English spoken by Chinese people, for example). In the best of scenarios during tech support calls with presumably Indian folks, I seem to grasp each word a beat or two after it's spoken, often having to close my eyes and slightly bow my head in concentration while listening. Add to that the 2x-speed delivery and (often) wrong syllable emphasis, and I'm out. I just can't parse a damned thing.
Monique, it's never been you. It's not you, and it's not me. It's them.
I have to give the same mental concentration you do--with the same head movement, closing my eyes, etc. We are having to work doubly hard to supply ourselves with the cues they won't provide.
I don't understand it.
Yep yep.
Reminder to consider just hitting the "for Spanish/Espanol hit X" button. Anyone servicing the Spanish line will also speak English and as a Latino/a will be courteous enough not to dispute your "oops - can you help me anyway?" request. Try it - you'll like it.
It does work but it's frustrating to have to do that because the companies should not be pushing us to "hack" their customer service systems. Especially when some of these companies provide phone and internet- 2 things essential to a functioning American infrastructure. I am getting closer to being ok with the government stepping in and insisting that if a company provides something that could reasonably categorized as infrastructure- they have to provide American-based customer service.
Hi Josh! Hho dear. Was it a Filipino call center agent?
East Asian is Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Macau, HK (as well as China). Southeast Asia is Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia.
If he or she was a Filipino call center agent, very very sorry. I’m from the Philippines and I’ve had a run in with at least two agents whose basic
comprehension capacity (though they spoke English well enough) was just not quite there. They were happy to lie as well.
Yeah this was going to be my question.
The only "east Asian" country that US-based companies use for call centres that I know of is the Philippines (usually considered southeast Asian).
In my experience (which is limited to a series of calls to sort a Microsoft issue) they have fairly Americanised accents and are coherent, but the speaking too quickly thing definitely tracks.
It’s all just going to be AI in the next two years.
It infuriates me that so many US companies have gone to foreign call centers for customer service and support for the sole purpose of maximizing their profits at the expense of their customers. It’s like “hey, buy our products and if you have any problems with them afterwards fuck you and best of luck with customer service!”
It's not a recent thing.
Twenty years ago I worked as an Oracle DBA for a small telecom. Their platform ran on Oracle.
As every on-call techie knows the worst calls happen at zero-dark-thirty over a weekend.
"Database down, we're losing money by the minute" was the gist of the call.
Called Oracle support, connected with their India support center. I've worked with H1B hires most of my tech career but the atrocious accent and general inability to comprehend prevented a timely resolution. Escalation was a farce.
Meanwhile, all the C-level poohbahs are flogging me mercilessly on a conference call.
Problem solved when Oracle support rolled to Australia. Communication at last, with an Aussie accent.
At the time Oracle support cost the company $500k a year. The company received a partial refund.
I had a normal, productive interaction with an Aussie who was polite, very helpful and even had a sense of humor we could share. I wonder why?
Could we stop the globalist greed, bring call centers back to the U.S. and stop hiring East Asian ESL's?! I had one, after he continuously interrupted me, arrogantly say to me, "Will you let me finish?" He was the supervisor I had requested after not getting anywhere with the original one from the Philippines. Serious balls.
It's not you. It's them.
First of all, it's hard to understand a foreign language over the phone. You can't see the lips, you can't see the facial cues, you aren't getting the full range of sound.
Second, when people learn languages, they often concentrate on using the right words or getting the grammar right, but what they should learn first of all is pronunciation. Natives can figure out what you meant if you get the word order a little wrong, but when we can't even tell what words they were using? No chance.
Third, they should switch to text-based tech support with Ai translation so that there's less misunderstanding. You type in English, Ai translates to their language, they respond in their language, the Ai renders it in English. There will still be odd phrases and things, but at least the medium is mutually intelligible.
I understand that companies don't want to pay the American wage premium. But they really need to consider that their first job is Don't Frustrate The Customer. Maybe too many in management are clinical narcissists, so they can't imagine what it's like on the receiving end.
My condolences. Stuff like this turns us all into Luddites.
It's a feature, Josh, not a bug. You're supposed to shut up and pay.
I can't count the number of commiserating belly laughs you've given me! I hope it's some consolation for your suffering...I love you, Josh!
I have worked with many “East Asians” over the years. It has always come down to me saying “if I can’t understand you, whether due to accent or speed, then I’m going to make assumptions, and that will NOT work in your favor.” Thankfully they were not call center employees, but it did get my point across. Alas, that doesn’t seem to work with support lines. ☹️
This is so true.