When identifying someone as a [malignant narcissist | psychopath | sociopath | Cluster B], you're saying, "This person is exceptionally dangerous and cannot be given the benefit of the doubt. This person's defects are calcified and irremediable -- they will not change for any reason short of a major stroke or lobotomy. This person should be never be trusted -- no matter how charming or sincere they may seem -- and instead should be avoided at all costs. And for God's sake, quit electing them to office, idolizing them, or marrying them."
The diagnosis is meant as a WARNING, not as a plea for understanding. Good grief.
I know someone is going to bring up when the perpetrator of a crime really is messed up enough in the head to where we do not deem them morally responsible. Fair enough. The thing is we still put those people away because they are a danger to everyone else. Another reason I cannot stand all the stuff about psychopaths and sociopaths is that few of them in the real world turn into things like serial killers. They are just more likely to than those without their mental disorders. Finally, some of the most evil sons of bitches on the planet are neither psychopaths or sociopaths. They are just fully functional monsters.
I am curious what you are trying to clear up - that people consider these terms of narcissist and psychopath or sociopath as “mental illness”? Therefore they get a pass because it’s a psychological/medical term and therefore will be examined and dealt with only on that basis?
I certainly DO understand the seriousness and moral evil it represents. Do others not? Or is it that they just don’t understand that the sociopath/psychopath can be just like the person next door and not take it to extreme levels such as those actions of Ted Bundy. BUT - the definition is these are individuals who have no conscience. No conscience equates to: no love, no regret, no compassion. I could go on. Their motivation is to win, entertain themselves, control dominate or manipulate and they are so direct and “guiltless” or concerned with anyone or anything that they are rarely confronted or can be stopped unless they elevate to the seriously recognized criminal levels.
My eyes were opened at how potentially prevalent this is in our society. People cannot comprehend that there are some with no conscience, no soul, and don’t have the same thinking processes as who we consider normal. And there is no way to change them, heal them, give extra chances to, etc. they are who they are and cannot be given a free pass. We also need to take care of ourselves and beware of these behaviors and not think we can help or change them.
I appreciate your explanations and clarifications and I hope more people take a look around them and delve into really understanding.
One really good book I have found to describe from childhood to adult and how this can be going on under our noses by seemingly regular people: the Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, phd she’s written a series of books, highly enlightening for me, incl the subtle differences between a narcissist vs a narcissistic sociopath/psychopath. (I have had a very personal interest in wanting to understand)
Thanks for the comment. I admit I don't really understand what you're asking. I was as clear as I knew how to be, but I think I might just not grasp what you're asking.
I'm concerned with clarifying that personality disorders are not moral excuses. If that's what you mean by "mental illness" (that's my guess, because you haven't defined your terms), as in, "mental illness means there's a moral excuse," I don't think I'd put it that way. But the bottom line I'm trying to clarify is this: no, calling someone a psychopath is not "letting them off the hook."
I don’t believe mental illness to be a moral excuse either. I think that part of your discussion is where I got confused. I’m not sure who considers it a moral excuse.
And for me, understanding what a psychopath/sociopath (seems the terms are used similarly, per the research I’ve delved into) is, what they can take upon themselves to do - and understanding the narcissist conditions, just tells me to steer clear of this in my life and my loved ones lives. To get as clear and whole as possible within myself and authentic so i no longer unknowingly allow this evil in my life.
Because those who give a pass because they think they can be helped (is that why? ) or “turn the other cheek“ or “forgive” or turn a blind eye for that matter, are ripe for having their lives destroyed by them.
I know you and I believe similarly. I guess I just didn’t comprehend the “mental health” and “free pass” explanations. Or where that originated - other people who don’t understand the evil?
Thanks for responding. Perhaps I should read your post tomorrow when I am fresher, as I am personally dealing with the specific issue of our conversation.
Oh boy, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this in your life. I've been there.
All I can say is that I do see people who react to it as if it were a moral excuse, or as if I were offering a moral excuse. Several did it elsewhere today. Unfortunately, it's not uncommon in my experience. You may have a different experience.
I wish you luck on getting through your unpleasantness quickly.
Thank you! I began considering some of the reactions of professionals who are in the business of helping these individuals and in the clusterB (narcissistic and sociopath) I truly believe they think they are helping but they don’t have a clue that the moral pass is only going along with the issues while helping/protecting themselves instead because they don’t understand or know how to deal with it. Meanwhile those individuals given the moral pass are now more empowered by all the “help” and “pass” support they are receiving and behaviors elevate to more grandiose, harmful, overt on a grander scale. (Such as no consequences for psychologically criminal behaviors and actions)
yes, rereading again today and considering examples I find in the “assistance” organizations at this moment in time that we are involving - I do 100% get your post!! Thank you for responding with more clarification and kindly!
Do you recall the story about the old lady neighbor and the lady at work who purposely gave wrong directions to a meeting a person was late for? “The Petty Psychopath” she called it. I never forgot those examples. That’s called evil while not breaking any laws/protecting yourself from a cage.
Josh, don’t watch the Netflix documentary on the Menendez brothers and the online reaction to it — you will be screaming at the television. It’s a perfect example of the moral confusion you’re addressing in this essay.
Both. It’s a festival of moral confusion…except for the prosecutor of the first trial. She’s the Annie Oakley of morality, and the TicTok’ers hate her.
I'm sort of toying with watching it. I know little about the details, but if I understand correctly, the parents were abusive Cluster Bs, the boys turned out the same way and killed their parents and tried to live it up. At least, that's what I remember.
If that's right, well, I always suspected that must have been a hellish house. That kind of murderous rage to your parents doesn't come out of nowhere (that's not an excuse for murder).
Yup, you remember it well. Anyway, it could be good for a Substack piece, at least…The Free Press had one on it today, but you could certainly bring a unique perspective.
Thanks Josh. I will see if I have anything to say—-I need and so appreciate your clarity around what is happening.
Sometime around 2017 my eyes were opened when I was bullied by anti-racists on line for daring to express an opinion while white. That was it for me. I felt how wrong it was in my body and the option of simpering obedience was never an option—not as a child, nor was it an option in 2017 or since. Unfortunately it is not possible to distance and cut off an insane society.
I just discovered your podcast yesterday and listened to your interview on the Dark-horse podcast with Brett Weinstein. Can you direct me to more content which deals directly with the danger of empathy for a Cluster B person ? (I also have a cluster B mother). And also more discussion on Cluster B and evil?
I also would like to hear more about the importance of reductionism in these times. I have never heard that before and I want more.
I am going to go subscribe or contribute now. Thank you!
You’ve done a public service by emphasizing the fact that pathology doesn’t negate morality. Hence Lobaczewski’s (and Koehli’s) category of ponerology, the study of evil pathology -- “evil” being the morally operative term that characterizes cluster B behavior, a term that does precisely the opposite of exonerating psychopathy.
My mother is borderline. Not as bad as yours was, but still a total crazy-making clusterfuck to grow up with. I've been no-contact for 7 years and in that time, have healed and grown in ways I didn't think possible. I have no real desire to have a relationship with her again--I still have dreams where I scream at her and beat her for not leaving me alone. I've had these dreams since I was a teenager.
I have a truly wonderful husband, 3 thriving kids, and a supportive and fun group of friends on the opposite coast of where I grew up (as far away as possible!). My brother has always succumbed to guilt and still has a relationship with our mother despite her going on a "sabotage PR tour" when his girlfriend was pregnant with his first baby--telling everyone from his girlfriend, to his girlfriend's family what a toxic person he was and how he used people and then dropped them and advising them to ditch him. All during the biggest crisis of his life (baby was unplanned). He still talks to her and brings her around his daughter. I look at his life and struggles (addiction, serial adultery, anger issues) and realize "there but for the grace of God, go I." I believe his inability to gain control of his life and steer it the way he wishes is due to their continuing relationship.
Why do I bring this up? Because since reverting to the faith of my upbringing (Catholicism) I know I'm supposed to forgive her. Jesus told us to "forgive those that trespass against us" and I know it's not good for me (religion or not) to hold onto this anger. To be clear, my priest to whom I go for spiritual direction has never suggested that I enter back into a relationship with her, but he has talked about the need to forgive her of her debt. And until now, I didn't realize the reason I was having trouble was because the culture (and me, apparently) were pretending there was no debt, no trespass, no sin, because of her borderline diagnosis and childhood trauma. I was, in a sense, excusing it but my soul knew on a deeper level that she IS culpable (hence my recurring dreams about her). She has never apologized for any of the emotional and verbal abuse, believes she has done nothing wrong, and does not seek help. I've always known intuitively her behavior was wrong and the way she treated her children was twisted but the conflicting messages from family and culture that she "can't help it" because of her "bad childhood" always seemed to let her off the hook and make me the problem for realizing how fucked up it all was.
Now, thanks to this Substack, making it CRYSTAL CLEAR what I'd intuitively known but didn't consciously know (cognitive dissonance that was driving me crazy!), I feel I can actually forgive her now because I truly realize there is something to forigive--her evil and sinful behavior--and not just something to overlook (her childhood trauma reaction). Thank you Josh, for giving me the knowledge to forgive and be free.
I too used to think that (you're required to forgive) but finally cottoned on to the fact that most of those lecturing us about it are either of the 'Cluster B' persuasion, or influenced by them.
Something to think about: Is the 'teaching' you're getting what the Bible ACTUALLY says, or is it really more a matter of what your priest (&/or his training) is choosing to tell you?
Upon re-reading the Bible, I discovered that remorse, repentance and usually restitution are important aspects of the cycle of forgiveness. Who knew? (Everyone with common sense who followed their God given instincts to say 'something seems off here' and then spent time researching the actual scriptures - that's who knew.) We all seem to overlook that Christ first fashioned a whip(!) to then drive the money changers out of the temple. Does that sound like Jesus is teaching us that forgiveness should be automatically granted? And, for an even bigger eye-opening experience, search the word "millstone" in just the New Testament alone to get an entirely new perspective on the misplaced idea of granting automatic forgiveness to those who unrepentantly commit evil - especially against children.
We'd do well to consider exactly WHO would want us to automatically 'forgive' evil acts committed by someone with no intention of repenting. Who, precisely because of our letting them off consequence free, is then free to continue creating more victims. I'm pretty certain that isn't Jesus demanding that.
You might want to consult another parish &/or priest to get a second opinion. For one thing, look up the term "Biblical Discernment", and then compare that to what you're being told.
__“Give your servant therefore an understanding mind to govern your people, that I may discern between good and evil” (1 Kings 3:9)__
Like everything else in modern society, (and isn't this another aspect of what Josh is trying to raise awareness of?) Christian churches (of all denominations) and especially the seminaries have been infiltrated. Lots of places to get more information on that: Taylor Marshall's book "Infiltration: The Plot to Destroy the Church from Within"; Julie Behnings research and publications: "Beneath Sheep's Clothing" about exactly how Communists in Russian seeded spies and informers into Christian Seminaries; and any number of smaller self-published books like Marie Carre's: "AA-1025: Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church".
Or, perhaps simpler, just search the word "Repentance" in the scriptures and see what it says.
And if the person is unable or unwilling to repent, are we not to have the peace that comes with forgiving others?
Repentance would be a requirement for her to have a relationship with me and even then, I don't want one. Forgiveness does not mean I condone it or even like her, it means I'm letting her out of my debt. Among other things, it gives me the freedom to move on and stop carrying her abuse around with me. Like almost all things, forgiving her is a process and is something I will be pursuing for years. But just because it seems almost impossible, doesn't mean I shouldn't try, as I am able, right now.
My priest and parish are excellent and traditionally-minded. Though I agree thr church has been infiltrated.
I apologize Natalie - that came out harsher than I'd intended. I don't mean to disparage your priest or parish, or even your choices - only to raise the possibility that they may have been subjected to, let's just say unhelpful, influences that aren't working in your best interests.
This is how I've come to some sort of peace with this: I won't waste forgiveness on my abuser (and I feel that if God won't why would I presume to know better); I'll find peace by praying for their redemption, and hopefully pay some kind of dept on their behalf by trying to raise awareness of this in people who are being victimized in the hope of circumventing the destruction people like that are able to inflict on innocents and doing whatever I can to prevent more of it.
Thank you, Jan. I understand VERY MUCH where your comment came from. I find myself questioning people who tell me (or others) to "just forgive" as, like you, I believe they haven't examined why they believe what they do and are acting out of guilt or conditioning or Cluster B influence.
Jesus's ways are high above ours, as He tells us, and difficult to understand so it makes sense there's lots of twists and turns in how we each understand how God is speaking to us especially through His difficult teachings. I think the way you're praying for their redemption is wonderful, and is also something I try to do (even when I don't want to!).
And yes, the church has absolutely been compromised with watered down liturgy and teaching and I too, feel it's part of a Marxist plan. It's hard to see and makes me grateful for our parish and good online Christian teaching. Sounds like you have found a good parish too 🙏🏻 God bless you, Jane!
As I see it, these days there’s a trend to think that diseases are entities beyond one’s control, making the person with the disease a hapless victim. Even diseases for which the treatment requires you to alter your behaviour (like obesity, diabetes, etc,) are still seen as something inflicted upon you unrelated to anything you might have done. People think of diseases as alien entities inserted into their bodies, to be battled or overcome.
As we define more and more things as diseases, there are more and more victims. For “brain diseases” which affect behaviour (like addictions, mental illnesses, and personality disorders) the logic then goes that the hapless victims of these diseases have zero control over their behaviour. The disease explains the behaviour, and the person has no agency. In a way, it’s not like saying they are
… morally absolved from their behaviour. It’s more like they are saying “the disease did it, not me”. They are totally wrong to think this way, but that’s how people are thinking.
Having extricated myself from a borderline "best friend" friendship, I tried to open the eyes of the partner - also a good friend - of said ex-friend. I tried to get him to understand that her cluster B diagnosis was an explanation for her behavior, BUT her bpd should not be an excuse for her hellish treatment of him and to stop excusing her!
Alas, I failed. It was a year ago this month when he turned on me somewhat in the same way your stepfather did on you. I still ponder how she broke him - and she did break him - and wonder if he would have done the things he ended up doing if he'd been in a relationship with a "normal" woman. He is much younger than she - almost 18 years - and that relationship started when he was young. Yes, yes indeed.
Thanks for your thoughts on this, Josh. I needed to hear this to give more clarity to my decision to remove myself from that disaster.
I think the category of “mental illness” has been expanded to include two very different types of conditions. I think most of us would agree that someone experiencing a psychotic episode or who has schizophrenia, or maybe someone who’s experienced a brain injury that’s left them unable to understand the world in the normal way, is at least less morally culpable for their actions. But to attempt to expand this to someone suffering from depression or ADHD or cluster B traits isn’t quite the same - these people are aware of their actions. How much they are responsible gets at the very core question of free will, and how much we are the products of our genes and experiences vs how much we have the ability to choose. If you believe in determinism over free will, you might be tempted to never hold anyone responsible for anything. But by doing so, you actually create an environment where more people will be caused by that environment to commit immoral acts. So my conclusion (which I think is the same as yours) is that whether you believe in free will or determinism, you have to hold people responsible for their actions and punish them, and mental health issues that don’t prevent a person from understanding reality do not excuse behavior.
Would you agree those people are still responsible for their actions? Or are you saying that “dissociation” means they aren’t in their right minds and aren’t responsible?
Bear in mind that right next to BPD in cluster B are the narcissists (NPD) and the socio-/psychopaths (ASPD), mental health conditions that incline juries to be more punitive, less lenient...
But it’s a genuinely tough call. Dissociation is severely underrecognized due to a number of factors, from Big Pharma’s preference for chemical remedies (none exist for dissociation) to the lingering backlash against the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and 1990s (when therapists leveraged dissociation to implant inaccurate memories of childhood trauma). I am persuaded by Janina Fisher's approach to the matter, which includes elements of the structural dissociation and IFS frameworks: https://psychcentral.com/lib/dissociation-fragmentation-and-self-understanding
The pushback comes because we can already see the mental illness angle being used to destigmatize and normalize aberrant behaviours, to the point where they're not even considered aberrant anymore. Transvestism is a glaring example which went from mental illness in the DSM to "they're really women with female penises and you must neuter your child if he likes pink or else you're a horrible bigot".
Absolutely spot on, Josh. One of the first times I listened to your podcast I was greatly enlightened by your explanation that Cluster B issues are behavioral in natue, i.e., personality issues. Really clarified for me the moral distinction between emotional dis-ease and physical disease. I think one of the reasons that excuse and blame get confused is because of our culture's obsessive belief in the inherent goodness of all people (generated in part by the word *prejudice* becoming a dirty word). As Admiral Ackbar might say, "It's a (moral) trap!" I remember the actor Tim Robbins bemoaning the fact that some killer was being executed by saying, as a mitigating factor, "He's a human being." To which I replied to myself, "Exactly." It may be true that, somewhere in the rarified world of atoms, there is no distinction between good and evil. But it's merely sentimental to think that such a reality holds true at *this* level of mass.
Thanks for sharing this, Nathalie (I guess you can't tag in comments). It's widespread enough that it gets in the way.
I miss "character disorder."
Same. That's why I sprinkle it in.
When identifying someone as a [malignant narcissist | psychopath | sociopath | Cluster B], you're saying, "This person is exceptionally dangerous and cannot be given the benefit of the doubt. This person's defects are calcified and irremediable -- they will not change for any reason short of a major stroke or lobotomy. This person should be never be trusted -- no matter how charming or sincere they may seem -- and instead should be avoided at all costs. And for God's sake, quit electing them to office, idolizing them, or marrying them."
The diagnosis is meant as a WARNING, not as a plea for understanding. Good grief.
I know someone is going to bring up when the perpetrator of a crime really is messed up enough in the head to where we do not deem them morally responsible. Fair enough. The thing is we still put those people away because they are a danger to everyone else. Another reason I cannot stand all the stuff about psychopaths and sociopaths is that few of them in the real world turn into things like serial killers. They are just more likely to than those without their mental disorders. Finally, some of the most evil sons of bitches on the planet are neither psychopaths or sociopaths. They are just fully functional monsters.
I believe you have the very misunderstanding that I wrote this essay to clear up.
Excellent essay Josh that needed to be published. Thank you!
I am curious what you are trying to clear up - that people consider these terms of narcissist and psychopath or sociopath as “mental illness”? Therefore they get a pass because it’s a psychological/medical term and therefore will be examined and dealt with only on that basis?
I certainly DO understand the seriousness and moral evil it represents. Do others not? Or is it that they just don’t understand that the sociopath/psychopath can be just like the person next door and not take it to extreme levels such as those actions of Ted Bundy. BUT - the definition is these are individuals who have no conscience. No conscience equates to: no love, no regret, no compassion. I could go on. Their motivation is to win, entertain themselves, control dominate or manipulate and they are so direct and “guiltless” or concerned with anyone or anything that they are rarely confronted or can be stopped unless they elevate to the seriously recognized criminal levels.
My eyes were opened at how potentially prevalent this is in our society. People cannot comprehend that there are some with no conscience, no soul, and don’t have the same thinking processes as who we consider normal. And there is no way to change them, heal them, give extra chances to, etc. they are who they are and cannot be given a free pass. We also need to take care of ourselves and beware of these behaviors and not think we can help or change them.
I appreciate your explanations and clarifications and I hope more people take a look around them and delve into really understanding.
One really good book I have found to describe from childhood to adult and how this can be going on under our noses by seemingly regular people: the Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, phd she’s written a series of books, highly enlightening for me, incl the subtle differences between a narcissist vs a narcissistic sociopath/psychopath. (I have had a very personal interest in wanting to understand)
Thanks for the comment. I admit I don't really understand what you're asking. I was as clear as I knew how to be, but I think I might just not grasp what you're asking.
I'm concerned with clarifying that personality disorders are not moral excuses. If that's what you mean by "mental illness" (that's my guess, because you haven't defined your terms), as in, "mental illness means there's a moral excuse," I don't think I'd put it that way. But the bottom line I'm trying to clarify is this: no, calling someone a psychopath is not "letting them off the hook."
I don’t believe mental illness to be a moral excuse either. I think that part of your discussion is where I got confused. I’m not sure who considers it a moral excuse.
And for me, understanding what a psychopath/sociopath (seems the terms are used similarly, per the research I’ve delved into) is, what they can take upon themselves to do - and understanding the narcissist conditions, just tells me to steer clear of this in my life and my loved ones lives. To get as clear and whole as possible within myself and authentic so i no longer unknowingly allow this evil in my life.
Because those who give a pass because they think they can be helped (is that why? ) or “turn the other cheek“ or “forgive” or turn a blind eye for that matter, are ripe for having their lives destroyed by them.
I know you and I believe similarly. I guess I just didn’t comprehend the “mental health” and “free pass” explanations. Or where that originated - other people who don’t understand the evil?
Thanks for responding. Perhaps I should read your post tomorrow when I am fresher, as I am personally dealing with the specific issue of our conversation.
Oh boy, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this in your life. I've been there.
All I can say is that I do see people who react to it as if it were a moral excuse, or as if I were offering a moral excuse. Several did it elsewhere today. Unfortunately, it's not uncommon in my experience. You may have a different experience.
I wish you luck on getting through your unpleasantness quickly.
Thank you! I began considering some of the reactions of professionals who are in the business of helping these individuals and in the clusterB (narcissistic and sociopath) I truly believe they think they are helping but they don’t have a clue that the moral pass is only going along with the issues while helping/protecting themselves instead because they don’t understand or know how to deal with it. Meanwhile those individuals given the moral pass are now more empowered by all the “help” and “pass” support they are receiving and behaviors elevate to more grandiose, harmful, overt on a grander scale. (Such as no consequences for psychologically criminal behaviors and actions)
yes, rereading again today and considering examples I find in the “assistance” organizations at this moment in time that we are involving - I do 100% get your post!! Thank you for responding with more clarification and kindly!
Do you recall the story about the old lady neighbor and the lady at work who purposely gave wrong directions to a meeting a person was late for? “The Petty Psychopath” she called it. I never forgot those examples. That’s called evil while not breaking any laws/protecting yourself from a cage.
Josh, don’t watch the Netflix documentary on the Menendez brothers and the online reaction to it — you will be screaming at the television. It’s a perfect example of the moral confusion you’re addressing in this essay.
Oh boy. Does the show itself carry that confusion, and also the reactions of fans? Or, just what?
Both. It’s a festival of moral confusion…except for the prosecutor of the first trial. She’s the Annie Oakley of morality, and the TicTok’ers hate her.
I'm sort of toying with watching it. I know little about the details, but if I understand correctly, the parents were abusive Cluster Bs, the boys turned out the same way and killed their parents and tried to live it up. At least, that's what I remember.
If that's right, well, I always suspected that must have been a hellish house. That kind of murderous rage to your parents doesn't come out of nowhere (that's not an excuse for murder).
Yup, you remember it well. Anyway, it could be good for a Substack piece, at least…The Free Press had one on it today, but you could certainly bring a unique perspective.
I am a therapist who works with people parented or married to Cluster B. I would love a follow up to this.
I, and readers I'm sure, would be very interested to hear your experience and thoughts. Feel free in the comments, or, consider a guest post?
Thanks Josh. I will see if I have anything to say—-I need and so appreciate your clarity around what is happening.
Sometime around 2017 my eyes were opened when I was bullied by anti-racists on line for daring to express an opinion while white. That was it for me. I felt how wrong it was in my body and the option of simpering obedience was never an option—not as a child, nor was it an option in 2017 or since. Unfortunately it is not possible to distance and cut off an insane society.
I just discovered your podcast yesterday and listened to your interview on the Dark-horse podcast with Brett Weinstein. Can you direct me to more content which deals directly with the danger of empathy for a Cluster B person ? (I also have a cluster B mother). And also more discussion on Cluster B and evil?
I also would like to hear more about the importance of reductionism in these times. I have never heard that before and I want more.
I am going to go subscribe or contribute now. Thank you!
Rachel, thank you so much for becoming a paid subscriber!
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/1442238321
I ate it up and am wanting more specifically about why Cluster B is not a moral excuse and why empathy is a mistake you make at your peril.
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/1442238321
You’ve done a public service by emphasizing the fact that pathology doesn’t negate morality. Hence Lobaczewski’s (and Koehli’s) category of ponerology, the study of evil pathology -- “evil” being the morally operative term that characterizes cluster B behavior, a term that does precisely the opposite of exonerating psychopathy.
I loved, and needed, this post.
My mother is borderline. Not as bad as yours was, but still a total crazy-making clusterfuck to grow up with. I've been no-contact for 7 years and in that time, have healed and grown in ways I didn't think possible. I have no real desire to have a relationship with her again--I still have dreams where I scream at her and beat her for not leaving me alone. I've had these dreams since I was a teenager.
I have a truly wonderful husband, 3 thriving kids, and a supportive and fun group of friends on the opposite coast of where I grew up (as far away as possible!). My brother has always succumbed to guilt and still has a relationship with our mother despite her going on a "sabotage PR tour" when his girlfriend was pregnant with his first baby--telling everyone from his girlfriend, to his girlfriend's family what a toxic person he was and how he used people and then dropped them and advising them to ditch him. All during the biggest crisis of his life (baby was unplanned). He still talks to her and brings her around his daughter. I look at his life and struggles (addiction, serial adultery, anger issues) and realize "there but for the grace of God, go I." I believe his inability to gain control of his life and steer it the way he wishes is due to their continuing relationship.
Why do I bring this up? Because since reverting to the faith of my upbringing (Catholicism) I know I'm supposed to forgive her. Jesus told us to "forgive those that trespass against us" and I know it's not good for me (religion or not) to hold onto this anger. To be clear, my priest to whom I go for spiritual direction has never suggested that I enter back into a relationship with her, but he has talked about the need to forgive her of her debt. And until now, I didn't realize the reason I was having trouble was because the culture (and me, apparently) were pretending there was no debt, no trespass, no sin, because of her borderline diagnosis and childhood trauma. I was, in a sense, excusing it but my soul knew on a deeper level that she IS culpable (hence my recurring dreams about her). She has never apologized for any of the emotional and verbal abuse, believes she has done nothing wrong, and does not seek help. I've always known intuitively her behavior was wrong and the way she treated her children was twisted but the conflicting messages from family and culture that she "can't help it" because of her "bad childhood" always seemed to let her off the hook and make me the problem for realizing how fucked up it all was.
Now, thanks to this Substack, making it CRYSTAL CLEAR what I'd intuitively known but didn't consciously know (cognitive dissonance that was driving me crazy!), I feel I can actually forgive her now because I truly realize there is something to forigive--her evil and sinful behavior--and not just something to overlook (her childhood trauma reaction). Thank you Josh, for giving me the knowledge to forgive and be free.
I too used to think that (you're required to forgive) but finally cottoned on to the fact that most of those lecturing us about it are either of the 'Cluster B' persuasion, or influenced by them.
Something to think about: Is the 'teaching' you're getting what the Bible ACTUALLY says, or is it really more a matter of what your priest (&/or his training) is choosing to tell you?
Upon re-reading the Bible, I discovered that remorse, repentance and usually restitution are important aspects of the cycle of forgiveness. Who knew? (Everyone with common sense who followed their God given instincts to say 'something seems off here' and then spent time researching the actual scriptures - that's who knew.) We all seem to overlook that Christ first fashioned a whip(!) to then drive the money changers out of the temple. Does that sound like Jesus is teaching us that forgiveness should be automatically granted? And, for an even bigger eye-opening experience, search the word "millstone" in just the New Testament alone to get an entirely new perspective on the misplaced idea of granting automatic forgiveness to those who unrepentantly commit evil - especially against children.
We'd do well to consider exactly WHO would want us to automatically 'forgive' evil acts committed by someone with no intention of repenting. Who, precisely because of our letting them off consequence free, is then free to continue creating more victims. I'm pretty certain that isn't Jesus demanding that.
You might want to consult another parish &/or priest to get a second opinion. For one thing, look up the term "Biblical Discernment", and then compare that to what you're being told.
__“Give your servant therefore an understanding mind to govern your people, that I may discern between good and evil” (1 Kings 3:9)__
Like everything else in modern society, (and isn't this another aspect of what Josh is trying to raise awareness of?) Christian churches (of all denominations) and especially the seminaries have been infiltrated. Lots of places to get more information on that: Taylor Marshall's book "Infiltration: The Plot to Destroy the Church from Within"; Julie Behnings research and publications: "Beneath Sheep's Clothing" about exactly how Communists in Russian seeded spies and informers into Christian Seminaries; and any number of smaller self-published books like Marie Carre's: "AA-1025: Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church".
Or, perhaps simpler, just search the word "Repentance" in the scriptures and see what it says.
And if the person is unable or unwilling to repent, are we not to have the peace that comes with forgiving others?
Repentance would be a requirement for her to have a relationship with me and even then, I don't want one. Forgiveness does not mean I condone it or even like her, it means I'm letting her out of my debt. Among other things, it gives me the freedom to move on and stop carrying her abuse around with me. Like almost all things, forgiving her is a process and is something I will be pursuing for years. But just because it seems almost impossible, doesn't mean I shouldn't try, as I am able, right now.
My priest and parish are excellent and traditionally-minded. Though I agree thr church has been infiltrated.
I apologize Natalie - that came out harsher than I'd intended. I don't mean to disparage your priest or parish, or even your choices - only to raise the possibility that they may have been subjected to, let's just say unhelpful, influences that aren't working in your best interests.
This is how I've come to some sort of peace with this: I won't waste forgiveness on my abuser (and I feel that if God won't why would I presume to know better); I'll find peace by praying for their redemption, and hopefully pay some kind of dept on their behalf by trying to raise awareness of this in people who are being victimized in the hope of circumventing the destruction people like that are able to inflict on innocents and doing whatever I can to prevent more of it.
Thank you, Jan. I understand VERY MUCH where your comment came from. I find myself questioning people who tell me (or others) to "just forgive" as, like you, I believe they haven't examined why they believe what they do and are acting out of guilt or conditioning or Cluster B influence.
Jesus's ways are high above ours, as He tells us, and difficult to understand so it makes sense there's lots of twists and turns in how we each understand how God is speaking to us especially through His difficult teachings. I think the way you're praying for their redemption is wonderful, and is also something I try to do (even when I don't want to!).
And yes, the church has absolutely been compromised with watered down liturgy and teaching and I too, feel it's part of a Marxist plan. It's hard to see and makes me grateful for our parish and good online Christian teaching. Sounds like you have found a good parish too 🙏🏻 God bless you, Jane!
I agree with your basic point.
As I see it, these days there’s a trend to think that diseases are entities beyond one’s control, making the person with the disease a hapless victim. Even diseases for which the treatment requires you to alter your behaviour (like obesity, diabetes, etc,) are still seen as something inflicted upon you unrelated to anything you might have done. People think of diseases as alien entities inserted into their bodies, to be battled or overcome.
As we define more and more things as diseases, there are more and more victims. For “brain diseases” which affect behaviour (like addictions, mental illnesses, and personality disorders) the logic then goes that the hapless victims of these diseases have zero control over their behaviour. The disease explains the behaviour, and the person has no agency. In a way, it’s not like saying they are
… morally absolved from their behaviour. It’s more like they are saying “the disease did it, not me”. They are totally wrong to think this way, but that’s how people are thinking.
Having extricated myself from a borderline "best friend" friendship, I tried to open the eyes of the partner - also a good friend - of said ex-friend. I tried to get him to understand that her cluster B diagnosis was an explanation for her behavior, BUT her bpd should not be an excuse for her hellish treatment of him and to stop excusing her!
Alas, I failed. It was a year ago this month when he turned on me somewhat in the same way your stepfather did on you. I still ponder how she broke him - and she did break him - and wonder if he would have done the things he ended up doing if he'd been in a relationship with a "normal" woman. He is much younger than she - almost 18 years - and that relationship started when he was young. Yes, yes indeed.
Thanks for your thoughts on this, Josh. I needed to hear this to give more clarity to my decision to remove myself from that disaster.
I think the category of “mental illness” has been expanded to include two very different types of conditions. I think most of us would agree that someone experiencing a psychotic episode or who has schizophrenia, or maybe someone who’s experienced a brain injury that’s left them unable to understand the world in the normal way, is at least less morally culpable for their actions. But to attempt to expand this to someone suffering from depression or ADHD or cluster B traits isn’t quite the same - these people are aware of their actions. How much they are responsible gets at the very core question of free will, and how much we are the products of our genes and experiences vs how much we have the ability to choose. If you believe in determinism over free will, you might be tempted to never hold anyone responsible for anything. But by doing so, you actually create an environment where more people will be caused by that environment to commit immoral acts. So my conclusion (which I think is the same as yours) is that whether you believe in free will or determinism, you have to hold people responsible for their actions and punish them, and mental health issues that don’t prevent a person from understanding reality do not excuse behavior.
Borderlines are known to dissociate, behave badly, then confabulate a DARVO/alibi they quickly if not immediately come to believe in.
Would you agree those people are still responsible for their actions? Or are you saying that “dissociation” means they aren’t in their right minds and aren’t responsible?
Bear in mind that right next to BPD in cluster B are the narcissists (NPD) and the socio-/psychopaths (ASPD), mental health conditions that incline juries to be more punitive, less lenient...
But it’s a genuinely tough call. Dissociation is severely underrecognized due to a number of factors, from Big Pharma’s preference for chemical remedies (none exist for dissociation) to the lingering backlash against the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and 1990s (when therapists leveraged dissociation to implant inaccurate memories of childhood trauma). I am persuaded by Janina Fisher's approach to the matter, which includes elements of the structural dissociation and IFS frameworks: https://psychcentral.com/lib/dissociation-fragmentation-and-self-understanding
The pushback comes because we can already see the mental illness angle being used to destigmatize and normalize aberrant behaviours, to the point where they're not even considered aberrant anymore. Transvestism is a glaring example which went from mental illness in the DSM to "they're really women with female penises and you must neuter your child if he likes pink or else you're a horrible bigot".
PDF files are next.
Absolutely spot on, Josh. One of the first times I listened to your podcast I was greatly enlightened by your explanation that Cluster B issues are behavioral in natue, i.e., personality issues. Really clarified for me the moral distinction between emotional dis-ease and physical disease. I think one of the reasons that excuse and blame get confused is because of our culture's obsessive belief in the inherent goodness of all people (generated in part by the word *prejudice* becoming a dirty word). As Admiral Ackbar might say, "It's a (moral) trap!" I remember the actor Tim Robbins bemoaning the fact that some killer was being executed by saying, as a mitigating factor, "He's a human being." To which I replied to myself, "Exactly." It may be true that, somewhere in the rarified world of atoms, there is no distinction between good and evil. But it's merely sentimental to think that such a reality holds true at *this* level of mass.