I think one of the major problems in our culture, and it's so embedded that it's often hard to see, is to treat evil actions a manifestation of some kind of disease. Whether mental illness, or systemic oppression, or drugs, etc., we remove the agency of the person acting bad and blame it on an outside factor.
And this is, as you say, based on the assumption that people are basically good, and therefore some outside agent could be the only explanation for terrible actions.
This is, perhaps, the most devastating and far-reaching lie ever told. The consequences of this seemingly generous belief are absolutely catastrophic.
People are NOT basically good.
Nor are they basically bad.
Rather, we all have the capacity to do terrible things, indifferent things, and great things. It's all within all of us. Environmental factors play an effect, and you can attest to how much abusive parents can warp the mindsets of their children. But in the end, we have the capacity to choose to do good, to choose to do evil, or everything in between. We have agency, and we are responsible for our choices. The sooner we can accept this is true for everyone, the sooner we can get our world to a better outcome.
I love how you point out that even though drugs clearly can affect how people behave, there was something wrong in the first place that prompted the person to take the drugs. When you go back to the root of it all, it's a person who chose to do something destructive, and it snowballs from there.
Precisely why Freud has been banished from the (especially American) mainstream: for daring to say that humans are shit, fundamentally. Of course, Hobbes had written the same before him.
Okay! I'll let Freud and Hobbes know and warn them never to misread Jon. There is, apparently, hell to pay. Happy Sunday! I hope you are not offended by the use of "hell" and "Sunday" in the same response.
Erin, thank you for not being offended, thank you for engaging with my ideas, and for holding up the mirror to my neuroticism. I frequently carry on online exchanges well past the point when they become silly and time-wasting. You are truly proof that people are good. Take care!
On point as usual. I think it's important to recognize it in oneself first. When I feel that existential terror to my ego, I use it as a CBT warning that a belief I have is not factual -or at least may not be.
Cognitive dissonance is terrifying because it shows that you aren't aligned with reality. Even if you're conscious mind won't admit it, you're amygdala knows. So if you don't use your executive functioning to catch it, the amygdala responds with fight or flight.
Since these are NPD men, their first response will be anger, rage and attack. Now for NPD women this can still occur but will likely be taken out on a child or subordinate. However, women will still sublimate and/or act out in covert reputation destruction.
I think people are far more open to acting out now, because society has become so feminized. Even 30 years ago that man wouldn't have done that because he would have been punched. I hate that we have to counter the threat of male violence with more male violence but until society does its job to protect the vulnerable...here we are. I guess.
Spot on and thank you for pointing it out! MtFs are on high doses of estrogen. If this were estrogen-driven behavior, this guy would have crumpled up on the sidewalk and cried. This is likely a psychopath, or at least a narcissist, who has received the message from the culture that this kind of behavior in public is now acceptable and will be applauded. People like him used to try to control themselves because of societal expectations, but they no longer have to.
To be fair extremes of estrogen can cause rage (think of PMS or menopause). As a middle-aged woman, I'm much more likely to give people a talking-to than to cry. That said, this is, obviously, a cowardly, decompensating NPD male.
In the case of menopause and perimenopause, this might be described as a situation of oestrogen deprivation, which in some people can definitely contribute to mood change, including anxiety.
Lately I’ve been hearing and reading about the impact of SSRIs and their negative effects on behavior. I never assumed the responsibility of said effects to be a result of the drug alone - in this case SSRIs, which apparently have a potential “side” effect of violent behavior. I’m surprised to see these articles because Big Pharma is seldom sited as the culprit. God forbid that a pharmaceutical is NOT used as a solution to each and every problem.
The range of folks that are prescribed SSRIs begins with the anxious over-achiever and runs the gamut to the character that Joaquin Phoenix played in THE JOKER.
What the normalcy biased public does not understand is how damaged these people really are. I agree with you that most of them have personality disorders and the Cluster B type in particular.
It is not unusual now to see people exhibiting narcissistic injury IN PUBLIC. In fact, such behaviors have been normalized as typified in the tantrums of those who are “misgendered”. There are a lot of mask-wearers and many of them are trying desperately to not let their carefully crafted “personalities” slip. Decompensation used to be rare as most people were at least somewhat resilient. In this era of emotional fragility we’re seeing people decompensate in public spaces and in the road rage and impatience that renders one a defensive driver. I don’t know about you, but I keep my eyes focused ahead and rarely make eye contact with these Cluster B drivers. We seem to be living in the Gotham City of our childhood cartoons, except there’s few supermen left and we’re left to fend for ourselves.
Public displays of anger are everywhere and some are covert, such as the green haired, overweight, nose-pierced girl in line in front of me at the coffee shop who gives the disdainful side-eye to my husband as he orders and pays for my drink. These women usually hang out in groups and they are almost indistinguishable. They are disgusted by any all things male.
The reason people need or think they need SSRIs or benzodiazepines to begin with is often because they were either raised by a Cluster B parent or have been subject to narcissistic abuse (at work, in the home, and/or by our culture itself).
Perhaps people who commit violent acts are damaged and those in charge of their care don’t want to believe that there are people who would treat their children, spouse, employees, or others so cruelly.
You’re right, it’s not the drugs; it’s the REASONS for the drugs. As Dr Gabor Mate states “Don’t ask why the addiction, ask why the pain”.
SSRIs are the go-to thing to blame. They may indeed have many more bad side effects than we're aware of, but they're also over-blamed, in my view.
I take SSRIs and have done for decades. No, I don't wish to be on them. Yes, I have tried getting off many times. But the plain fact for me is that they have allowed me to stay out of crippling depression and other problems in a way that nothing else I've tried has done.
I have taken them as well and fully realize that it was my circumstances and not something intrinsically wrong with me that created my need for them. They are brutal to get off of and the only reason I was able to wean myself was that I literally didn’t have a moment to think about the withdrawal effects. I do remember the brain buzzing, increased anxiety, and the huge bags of M and Ms I are by the handful in it’s stead.
Midwestern Doc recently wrote an article blaming the SSRIs for the mass murders. But when I asked why they don't have these mass murders all over the place in lots of other countries where they are also heavily prescribed, he never answered. I am with Josh on this one.
World leaders have known for thousands of years that they can do things to us once we're damaged by traumas, and then they can manipulate us thru various tragedies and savior plans.
That's besides a real person in your own home who may be manipulative.
I don't know what the remedy is but our trauma seems global b/c everything is global anymore...
which for those of us who have gotten tired of the world encroaching upon us just means we prefer being alone inside a quiet house or in the yard gardening or out fishing or something comforting like that. Too much drama. I've OD'd on drama. Drama is trauma. And it makes me weak trying to deal with real issues b/c the effects of trauma reduce the ability to cope with normal things.
My mother takes almost no drugs whatsoever. Nothing legal or illegal aside from maybe caffeine. I’m pretty sure she never even takes NSAIDS. I’ve seen her drink alcohol maybe twice or three times a year, and that would be one or two drinks, at most. She denounces alcohol loudly and often, and criticizes anyone who drinks at all.
She solidly meets 8 out of 9 criteria for BPD and has a lot of narcissistic traits as well. Her behavior is extreme to the point that I’ve gone no contact for my own safety and sanity.
It's not the drugs. It's their mental illness, and who knows how many voices they are really hearing?
Some of them are borderline IDD, while others are purely psychotic.
By the way, we used to have mental hospitals for people like that, but they got shut down because a few nurses and psychiatrists made bad choices and mistreated patients. It was a lot like throwing out the baby with bath water. We should have cleaned up the hospitals and continued to treat people.
Now, the jails and prisons are the treatment centers.
I agree. Also, exogenous T in a female body produces ‘roid rage, just as excess T can in men, so what might have been an ugly tantrum by a troubled girl now can be a mass murder. Whereas society frowns on street users, it celebrates and juices these young women. It would be nice to see a gender clinic named in a lawsuit stemming from the Audrey Hale murders.
An endless philosophical exchange can be had on the topic of what REALLY gives rise to behavior and who/what is responsible.
We can cut through all of that by asking a single question: what factors have to change to change the behavior? What elements should shift in order to fix these antisocial behaviors? How can people heal? As anyone in recovery will tell you, personal responsibility is the beginning and end of these changes. Nothing can happen without it the extent to which you embrace it will dictate your results. Full stop. There is simply no other way to recover from addiction or modify personality pathologies or improve behavior.
You're the only person who can make choices and act for yourself. You have to first understand that you have this power, and this responsibility... and THEN healing can begin.
Anyone trying to blame these acts on drugs or society or diagnosis or whatever is simply perpetuating a state of mind which will keep these people sick. Fixing yourself begins with yourself, every time.
I've been in recovery for years and seen thousands of people who have gotten their lives together and EVERY SINGLE one of them would agree with my statements. If you disagree... what's your data set? Do you even WANT people to heal, or do you want top use them as a wedge to create ideological shifts in society?
At one time people like that deranged dude in a dress would have been just walking around among us, unnoticed until he blew a gasket. One thing the trans mass hysteria has done for society is put a lot of individuals with serious mental health issues into distinctive costume so we can see them coming and brace ourselves or cross the street. There's one in my extended family of in-laws. I stay as far away as possible.
I’m not religious or well versed in Christian theology at all really but didn’t Christ say we mere mortals were basically shit ( sinners) and our main job throughout our life on this mortal plane was to try and be less shit? I think it was phrased better. 😎
I managed a non profit thrift store for ex psych patients in my 30's. I was hired after volunteering for one year.
Some of my volunteers had been holed up inside their group homes for years, others had been newly released from mental institutes. Most were all heavily medicated.
There weren't that many outpatient social services being provided by the government after they slashed the healthcare budget, so between the one local drop-in and our store/foodbank there weren't many places in the community for people with mental illness to work or socialise. Their therapists sent them to us believing the experience would help them integrate back into society.
In my experience despite the use of drugs to "reduce" symptoms, some still became very violent with little provocation. I barely escaped having my brains bashed out by one such volunteer brandishing a solid brass industrial door handle.
To this day, I still don't know what exactly provoked that attack. He was new to me and from the get go he was agitated.
What I do know however, is that my NP coordinators vetted all volunteers and knew about their prior violent pasts before they were sent to me.
I never did get a good answer as to why they failed to notify me of those facts. Plausible deniability was a thing with this NGO.
It wasn't uncommon to over hear them referring to us as being either a "good" crazy or "bad" crazy. I gathered that the "good" ones were the quiet, anxious, possibly over medicated type souls, many that I soon learned suffered with tardive dyskinesia symptoms so bad they could barely put clothes on a hanger.
The "bad" ones, were those they deemed impervious to their drug therapy. They acted out their anger freely, always agitated about some perceived threat or misconstrued comment. They had frequent bouts of angry shouting and throwing things about, including towards customers.
I was never able to help them de-escalate their emotional reactiveness either. They just appeared to be hard wired that way. Those "bads" were the people who would inevitably end up being taken away by the police, processed and placed back in the mental institute.
No matter what happened, I was simply expected to carry on, "manage" the store and the volunteers on my own without any training or knowledge about psychiatric things.
It was an exhausting job both physically and mentally. After 3 years I had to leave for my own wellbeing and in the end I just came to realise that there are dangerous, unfixable people out there.
Agree. Its not the drugs, its exactly as you say. The 'drugs' may exacerbate it all, but they are not the root cause.
I think one of the major problems in our culture, and it's so embedded that it's often hard to see, is to treat evil actions a manifestation of some kind of disease. Whether mental illness, or systemic oppression, or drugs, etc., we remove the agency of the person acting bad and blame it on an outside factor.
And this is, as you say, based on the assumption that people are basically good, and therefore some outside agent could be the only explanation for terrible actions.
This is, perhaps, the most devastating and far-reaching lie ever told. The consequences of this seemingly generous belief are absolutely catastrophic.
People are NOT basically good.
Nor are they basically bad.
Rather, we all have the capacity to do terrible things, indifferent things, and great things. It's all within all of us. Environmental factors play an effect, and you can attest to how much abusive parents can warp the mindsets of their children. But in the end, we have the capacity to choose to do good, to choose to do evil, or everything in between. We have agency, and we are responsible for our choices. The sooner we can accept this is true for everyone, the sooner we can get our world to a better outcome.
I love how you point out that even though drugs clearly can affect how people behave, there was something wrong in the first place that prompted the person to take the drugs. When you go back to the root of it all, it's a person who chose to do something destructive, and it snowballs from there.
Precisely why Freud has been banished from the (especially American) mainstream: for daring to say that humans are shit, fundamentally. Of course, Hobbes had written the same before him.
Humans are not shit. Didn't you read what Jon said? We are a mix of the angelic and the devilish, both. Who predominates? The one you feed.
Okay! I'll let Freud and Hobbes know and warn them never to misread Jon. There is, apparently, hell to pay. Happy Sunday! I hope you are not offended by the use of "hell" and "Sunday" in the same response.
I wasn't offended, and... well, isn't your sarcasm sorta... over the top? All I am doing is arguing with your point of view. :-)
Erin, thank you for not being offended, thank you for engaging with my ideas, and for holding up the mirror to my neuroticism. I frequently carry on online exchanges well past the point when they become silly and time-wasting. You are truly proof that people are good. Take care!
To add, this was not sarcastic. I honestly think you are clever and good--just in case.
On point as usual. I think it's important to recognize it in oneself first. When I feel that existential terror to my ego, I use it as a CBT warning that a belief I have is not factual -or at least may not be.
Cognitive dissonance is terrifying because it shows that you aren't aligned with reality. Even if you're conscious mind won't admit it, you're amygdala knows. So if you don't use your executive functioning to catch it, the amygdala responds with fight or flight.
Since these are NPD men, their first response will be anger, rage and attack. Now for NPD women this can still occur but will likely be taken out on a child or subordinate. However, women will still sublimate and/or act out in covert reputation destruction.
I think people are far more open to acting out now, because society has become so feminized. Even 30 years ago that man wouldn't have done that because he would have been punched. I hate that we have to counter the threat of male violence with more male violence but until society does its job to protect the vulnerable...here we are. I guess.
Anyone have suggestions?
What’s NPD?
Narcissistic?
Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Spot on and thank you for pointing it out! MtFs are on high doses of estrogen. If this were estrogen-driven behavior, this guy would have crumpled up on the sidewalk and cried. This is likely a psychopath, or at least a narcissist, who has received the message from the culture that this kind of behavior in public is now acceptable and will be applauded. People like him used to try to control themselves because of societal expectations, but they no longer have to.
To be fair extremes of estrogen can cause rage (think of PMS or menopause). As a middle-aged woman, I'm much more likely to give people a talking-to than to cry. That said, this is, obviously, a cowardly, decompensating NPD male.
In the case of menopause and perimenopause, this might be described as a situation of oestrogen deprivation, which in some people can definitely contribute to mood change, including anxiety.
That's exactly what I was saying. But, perhaps, you are a medical professional, not a run-of-the-mill aging harridan.
Lately I’ve been hearing and reading about the impact of SSRIs and their negative effects on behavior. I never assumed the responsibility of said effects to be a result of the drug alone - in this case SSRIs, which apparently have a potential “side” effect of violent behavior. I’m surprised to see these articles because Big Pharma is seldom sited as the culprit. God forbid that a pharmaceutical is NOT used as a solution to each and every problem.
The range of folks that are prescribed SSRIs begins with the anxious over-achiever and runs the gamut to the character that Joaquin Phoenix played in THE JOKER.
What the normalcy biased public does not understand is how damaged these people really are. I agree with you that most of them have personality disorders and the Cluster B type in particular.
It is not unusual now to see people exhibiting narcissistic injury IN PUBLIC. In fact, such behaviors have been normalized as typified in the tantrums of those who are “misgendered”. There are a lot of mask-wearers and many of them are trying desperately to not let their carefully crafted “personalities” slip. Decompensation used to be rare as most people were at least somewhat resilient. In this era of emotional fragility we’re seeing people decompensate in public spaces and in the road rage and impatience that renders one a defensive driver. I don’t know about you, but I keep my eyes focused ahead and rarely make eye contact with these Cluster B drivers. We seem to be living in the Gotham City of our childhood cartoons, except there’s few supermen left and we’re left to fend for ourselves.
Public displays of anger are everywhere and some are covert, such as the green haired, overweight, nose-pierced girl in line in front of me at the coffee shop who gives the disdainful side-eye to my husband as he orders and pays for my drink. These women usually hang out in groups and they are almost indistinguishable. They are disgusted by any all things male.
The reason people need or think they need SSRIs or benzodiazepines to begin with is often because they were either raised by a Cluster B parent or have been subject to narcissistic abuse (at work, in the home, and/or by our culture itself).
Perhaps people who commit violent acts are damaged and those in charge of their care don’t want to believe that there are people who would treat their children, spouse, employees, or others so cruelly.
You’re right, it’s not the drugs; it’s the REASONS for the drugs. As Dr Gabor Mate states “Don’t ask why the addiction, ask why the pain”.
SSRIs are the go-to thing to blame. They may indeed have many more bad side effects than we're aware of, but they're also over-blamed, in my view.
I take SSRIs and have done for decades. No, I don't wish to be on them. Yes, I have tried getting off many times. But the plain fact for me is that they have allowed me to stay out of crippling depression and other problems in a way that nothing else I've tried has done.
They certainly don't make me violent.
I have taken them as well and fully realize that it was my circumstances and not something intrinsically wrong with me that created my need for them. They are brutal to get off of and the only reason I was able to wean myself was that I literally didn’t have a moment to think about the withdrawal effects. I do remember the brain buzzing, increased anxiety, and the huge bags of M and Ms I are by the handful in it’s stead.
Midwestern Doc recently wrote an article blaming the SSRIs for the mass murders. But when I asked why they don't have these mass murders all over the place in lots of other countries where they are also heavily prescribed, he never answered. I am with Josh on this one.
Nah. People don't necessarily have pain, when they take drugs. Lots of people take them for "fun" and get screwed up on the way.
More please 🙏
I sense this article is going to be featured near the end of next week's show...
Give a boy a break.
World leaders have known for thousands of years that they can do things to us once we're damaged by traumas, and then they can manipulate us thru various tragedies and savior plans.
That's besides a real person in your own home who may be manipulative.
I don't know what the remedy is but our trauma seems global b/c everything is global anymore...
which for those of us who have gotten tired of the world encroaching upon us just means we prefer being alone inside a quiet house or in the yard gardening or out fishing or something comforting like that. Too much drama. I've OD'd on drama. Drama is trauma. And it makes me weak trying to deal with real issues b/c the effects of trauma reduce the ability to cope with normal things.
A single account among many, but:
My mother takes almost no drugs whatsoever. Nothing legal or illegal aside from maybe caffeine. I’m pretty sure she never even takes NSAIDS. I’ve seen her drink alcohol maybe twice or three times a year, and that would be one or two drinks, at most. She denounces alcohol loudly and often, and criticizes anyone who drinks at all.
She solidly meets 8 out of 9 criteria for BPD and has a lot of narcissistic traits as well. Her behavior is extreme to the point that I’ve gone no contact for my own safety and sanity.
It's not the drugs. It's their mental illness, and who knows how many voices they are really hearing?
Some of them are borderline IDD, while others are purely psychotic.
By the way, we used to have mental hospitals for people like that, but they got shut down because a few nurses and psychiatrists made bad choices and mistreated patients. It was a lot like throwing out the baby with bath water. We should have cleaned up the hospitals and continued to treat people.
Now, the jails and prisons are the treatment centers.
I agree. Also, exogenous T in a female body produces ‘roid rage, just as excess T can in men, so what might have been an ugly tantrum by a troubled girl now can be a mass murder. Whereas society frowns on street users, it celebrates and juices these young women. It would be nice to see a gender clinic named in a lawsuit stemming from the Audrey Hale murders.
Well said, Josh.
Not even they believe they’re the opposite sex. They know that no amount of makeup or hormones or clothing will change that.
Perhaps more importantly, neither will the number of people they have surrounded themselves with who are willing to lie to them.
An endless philosophical exchange can be had on the topic of what REALLY gives rise to behavior and who/what is responsible.
We can cut through all of that by asking a single question: what factors have to change to change the behavior? What elements should shift in order to fix these antisocial behaviors? How can people heal? As anyone in recovery will tell you, personal responsibility is the beginning and end of these changes. Nothing can happen without it the extent to which you embrace it will dictate your results. Full stop. There is simply no other way to recover from addiction or modify personality pathologies or improve behavior.
You're the only person who can make choices and act for yourself. You have to first understand that you have this power, and this responsibility... and THEN healing can begin.
Anyone trying to blame these acts on drugs or society or diagnosis or whatever is simply perpetuating a state of mind which will keep these people sick. Fixing yourself begins with yourself, every time.
I've been in recovery for years and seen thousands of people who have gotten their lives together and EVERY SINGLE one of them would agree with my statements. If you disagree... what's your data set? Do you even WANT people to heal, or do you want top use them as a wedge to create ideological shifts in society?
At one time people like that deranged dude in a dress would have been just walking around among us, unnoticed until he blew a gasket. One thing the trans mass hysteria has done for society is put a lot of individuals with serious mental health issues into distinctive costume so we can see them coming and brace ourselves or cross the street. There's one in my extended family of in-laws. I stay as far away as possible.
I’m not religious or well versed in Christian theology at all really but didn’t Christ say we mere mortals were basically shit ( sinners) and our main job throughout our life on this mortal plane was to try and be less shit? I think it was phrased better. 😎
I managed a non profit thrift store for ex psych patients in my 30's. I was hired after volunteering for one year.
Some of my volunteers had been holed up inside their group homes for years, others had been newly released from mental institutes. Most were all heavily medicated.
There weren't that many outpatient social services being provided by the government after they slashed the healthcare budget, so between the one local drop-in and our store/foodbank there weren't many places in the community for people with mental illness to work or socialise. Their therapists sent them to us believing the experience would help them integrate back into society.
In my experience despite the use of drugs to "reduce" symptoms, some still became very violent with little provocation. I barely escaped having my brains bashed out by one such volunteer brandishing a solid brass industrial door handle.
To this day, I still don't know what exactly provoked that attack. He was new to me and from the get go he was agitated.
What I do know however, is that my NP coordinators vetted all volunteers and knew about their prior violent pasts before they were sent to me.
I never did get a good answer as to why they failed to notify me of those facts. Plausible deniability was a thing with this NGO.
It wasn't uncommon to over hear them referring to us as being either a "good" crazy or "bad" crazy. I gathered that the "good" ones were the quiet, anxious, possibly over medicated type souls, many that I soon learned suffered with tardive dyskinesia symptoms so bad they could barely put clothes on a hanger.
The "bad" ones, were those they deemed impervious to their drug therapy. They acted out their anger freely, always agitated about some perceived threat or misconstrued comment. They had frequent bouts of angry shouting and throwing things about, including towards customers.
I was never able to help them de-escalate their emotional reactiveness either. They just appeared to be hard wired that way. Those "bads" were the people who would inevitably end up being taken away by the police, processed and placed back in the mental institute.
No matter what happened, I was simply expected to carry on, "manage" the store and the volunteers on my own without any training or knowledge about psychiatric things.
It was an exhausting job both physically and mentally. After 3 years I had to leave for my own wellbeing and in the end I just came to realise that there are dangerous, unfixable people out there.