I don't get the "men made trans" thing. If you ask any guy (if they're free to speak) the whole idea of trans is a joke. Something to ridicule. Normal guys think that anyway. None of them has any interest in going near women's spaces.
But I suppose this is just the latest feminist projection onto the barstool crowd. It doesn't have to make sense.
I think some people blame the AGP "trans women" (ie men) for creating or at least increasing the explosion in numbers of trans identified youth because the new generation/batch validates their identity and helps usher in their "rights" to female spaces if "born this way" and "kids know who they are" and "your sex/gender is how you feel or what you say" are all valid.
Those men did indeed do that, and are still doing it.
But feminist women have also contributed to this. The "gender/sex is a social construct," the male-bashing, and the cuddly-mommy-for-feminine-boys approach (all about turning boys into functional girls) has a lot to answer for.
There are many, many more such feminists than there are AGP men.
Complicated, but yes, I agree. Many more, in fact almost exclusively, women in my life have fueled the dysfunctional fires of my daughter's ROGD delusion and have been frankly abusive to me in response to my asking them to listen to my perspective and try to understand what is actually happening to children like mine.
Exactly. They feel so smug being "better" than I am. More supportive, more liberal, more loving of my child. I'm a therapist, and one said she actually wanted to warn all my patients about me that I'm not who I seem to be. I said that all of gender ideology is not what it oh so simply, magically seems to be to her, and now we are not friends.
I have my issues with feminists and a lot of women who have those sentiments. But much of it is this need to be part of a group, usually the fist-pumping kind. But in no way do I hate anyone for being whatever they are. I despise the activist mentality among those who create trouble, like getting people arrested or pestering (instigating) people or by being violent themselves.
I actually like women, but we all idealize what kind of partner we'd like in life. Most of the time, it doesn't last long, and it seems most relationships are rather fleeting.
But I keep my distance from most opinionated people, even in the church I go to.
And now, since that confusing CEO murder which the media and fakers and know-it-alls have chimed in on while we don't know exactly WTF happened... I am ever-more cautious about everyone. People at work and old friends alike support murdering someone who might have F'd over millions of innocent patients.
I can't go there. I cannot begin rationalizing hate which leads to murder.
One domino and the nation can fall with all the demons flying everywhere so that we do not know who is for us and who is against us.
It's understandable to not want someone who appears like a man to be welcomed into a woman's or a girl's locker room. That is common sense. If someone dresses a certain way in public, like going to Macy's or something, they might want to consider wearing trousers and using the men's room for that excursion. Maybe if they're going to an LGBT play on Broadway, they can do what they do in Rome.
We all need to just be more mindful of one another in public. I think certain special rights have to be reconsidered for common sense among the general public b/c they also include children and folks who have more traditional views. Why do they have to step aside? We're all taxpayers, as these groups like to remind us. Yeah, well then we all need to be considered in mixed company. Just b/c one's nose is itchy doesn't mean it's nice to pick it in front of everyone.
I am a woman, a TERF, as gender critical as they come, and somewhat of an early wave feminist, and I fully agree with you. I think Me Too went way too far and over-reported male "toxicity," and all of us -- our sons, good men, even women, all of us -- are hurt by it.
The only thing I wonder about, Josh, is "average feminist." Are they really that blind, after all the water that's gone under the bridge? I am hoping not.
IMO, earlier (second wave) feminism was empowering and fun, though it gave way too much space to its "crazy ladies" who vilified men, and pushed the idea that girls and boys are interchangeable (who TF came up with that stupid idea anyway?!). Then it all went off the rails. The last time I saw Mary Daly was when she had become a grim lesbian separatist, and Andrea Dworkin with her preaching about the ubiquitous rape culture was all the rage. Sigh.
I will not any longer do any parsing or "benefit of the doubt nuance" trying to sort out "reasonable feminists" from non-reasonable ones. It doesn't work.
It's on women like you, and on anyone who calls themselves a feminist, to be clear about what you mean and what you don't mean. But choosing to call yourself a feminist, then getting upset with others like me for not "seeing feminism the way you see it, and spending time making sure to say and to get fine-grained," is not productive. Your preferred term *has been sullied objectively*. That's real. I didn't do that. Men didn't do it. Not my work to fix.
It's not on me. It's on those who use it. Repeated requests for me to do this result in me stopping all contact with such women/feminists.
I've been the gay "gelded patsy" and been mercilessly attacked when I ended friendships with toxic women. When I was younger I had many female friends. Now hardly any. Also let's be clear about who is keeping "trans" alive. It was the women at my job who clapped and wanted to have a party when my work colleague Mike became "Siobhan." It's only women at my job who still have pronouns in their email signatures. When my partner was at a class recently it was the women who dropped everything to fawn all over the troon that waltzed into the room. It is a woman we know who wants or needs to believe there is a certain cohort "gender dysphoric" people who are happier LARPing as the opposite sex. Insert whatever "not all's" you want.
Greg, I spent the first 40 year of my life mispronouncing that female name in my head. I had only ever seen it printed in the liner notes for Bananarama albums (Siobahn Fahey).
I thought there was a strange Irish girl's name pronounced "See-oh-bonn."
When either side blame their problems on the other, they are being manipulated. Neither Men alone nor women alone create the problems we face now, but humanity in general, male and female, in partnership (as always) create society and when looking to blame, follow the Divider
I have a sister-in-law with a PhD in psychology who has spent her life in bitterness against men and is obsessed with "The Patriarchy". Unfortunately, she passed this on to her daughter, who is now a bitter, man-hating young woman. I also have a sister-in-law who is a Transhausen-by-proxy mother of a mentally deranged daughter who has been cosplaying "male" for the past several years, going as far as surgical butchery, which probably occurred when she was still a minor. Thank God my wife was the normal, intelligent girl in her family!
Men are men when they shrug and put their attention elsewhere. Find that dispassionate place in your heart that god put in every man. Feminist issues, gender issues are the expression of unhappiness in other people. Don't let it spoil your day.
Feminism demands that women must first proclaim themselves as victims. This is the ball and chain that thwarts female empowerment. Instead of looking to free themselves, they sit in their slavery blaming the patriarchy. They find virtue in self abnegation...they choose the role of damsel in distress. And yet, they look to their 'oppressors' for succor...
"We are the external locus of control onto which they project all of their problems so that they have to take zero responsibility for anything that happens to them, or anything wrong in society."
Abso-goddamn-lutely. This is the crux of the issue as far as I am concerned.
There is a commenter on a blog I read who often makes a point at various times when the topic of discussion is "feminism" by using a certain turn of phrase. His comments sent me off to do a bit of research. Low and behold, "complementarity" became part of my lexicon.
"Men and women are considered complementary in nature, meaning they possess distinct yet balanced attributes and skills. This concept is rooted in various religious and philosophical traditions, including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism.
In Christianity, for instance, the idea of complementarity is often linked to the teachings of St. John Paul II, who emphasized the unique roles of men and women in marriage and family life. According to this view, men and women are equal in dignity and personhood but differ in their masculine and feminine characteristics, which are ordained by God. This distinction is reflected in the biblical account of creation, where Adam and Eve are depicted as complementary partners, with Adam representing the headship and Eve representing the helper/assistant role." [Many feminists' heads spin at this understanding. Like the vitriol they heap on "trad wives", they are incapable of assessing the possible validity of a complementary relationship with the opposite sex that has benefits for both parties.]
"In general, the idea of men and women being complementary in nature suggests that:
• Biological differences: Men and women have distinct biological characteristics, such as reproductive roles, that reflect their complementary nature.
• Different strengths and weaknesses: Men and women possess unique strengths and weaknesses, which are essential for a balanced and harmonious relationship.
• Interdependence: Complementarity implies a deep interdependence between men and women, where each partner relies on the other’s strengths and compensates for their weaknesses.
• Equality and dignity: Despite their differences, men and women are equal in dignity and personhood, with each having a unique contribution to make in family, society, and culture."
Just imagine - "...distinct yet balanced attributes and skills." "... equal in dignity and personhood..." It's there. Always has been. All of it - the way men and women should relate - exists in the place where adults and reality meet to discuss how to arrive at a more perfect place, understanding that mistakes are made but that by working together, over time, it's not only possible but also desirable to help each other succeed at being the best they can be. Viva la complementarity!
But the way feminists react to this, you'd think that no man has ever been in a subordinate position. They truly seem to believe that only women have ever been in a non-top position in a hierarchy, and that all hierarchical relationships are abusive by nature.
It's disconnected from reality. Most men are in hierarchies all over the place with other men. I've been a basic staffer, I've been in the middle, and I've been the boss. I've been a subordinate to a female boss, too. I have zero problem taking orders from someone who's better at deciding those things than I am.
A year ago on Twitter, I replied to a gender critical feminist and pointed out that trans ideology was a pathology promoted primarily by women. She told me that because a few men like Kinsey had created these ideologies, it was actually the fault of men that these ideas are spreading.
I couldn't help but feel annoyed by this because the majority of extreme ideas are created by men. You just don't see many women writing content like the Unabomber. Despite this, most outlandish ideas don't go far. In order for an idea to spread throughout societies and institutions, it has to have thousands, if not millions of footsoldiers....believers, spreaders and enforces of the dogma. It is women who are doing this in regard to transgenderism. By and large, men think it's completely stupid.
The tragedy is that human flourishing depends on both men and women appreciating each other, respecting each other, and working together -- especially in terms of maximizing the number of healthy, stable families (which is the number one way in which humanity flourishes).
Have there been men who treat women badly? Obviously, yes. What many who call themselves feminists seem to be blind to is women treating men badly. And that nothing good comes from constant anger heaped toward men. There are no thriving nations, nor thriving communities, nor thriving families amid such animosity. And if there are no thriving families, what hope is there for the next generation?
I don't get the "men made trans" thing. If you ask any guy (if they're free to speak) the whole idea of trans is a joke. Something to ridicule. Normal guys think that anyway. None of them has any interest in going near women's spaces.
But I suppose this is just the latest feminist projection onto the barstool crowd. It doesn't have to make sense.
That's all it is. Projection.
The kind of men who do this are a small minority; they don't represent "maleness."
Mainly, they're mentally ill/personality disordered. How that came to represent "what men are like" escapes me.
I think some people blame the AGP "trans women" (ie men) for creating or at least increasing the explosion in numbers of trans identified youth because the new generation/batch validates their identity and helps usher in their "rights" to female spaces if "born this way" and "kids know who they are" and "your sex/gender is how you feel or what you say" are all valid.
Those men did indeed do that, and are still doing it.
But feminist women have also contributed to this. The "gender/sex is a social construct," the male-bashing, and the cuddly-mommy-for-feminine-boys approach (all about turning boys into functional girls) has a lot to answer for.
There are many, many more such feminists than there are AGP men.
Complicated, but yes, I agree. Many more, in fact almost exclusively, women in my life have fueled the dysfunctional fires of my daughter's ROGD delusion and have been frankly abusive to me in response to my asking them to listen to my perspective and try to understand what is actually happening to children like mine.
Gaining understanding might imperil their pleasant self righteousness
Exactly. They feel so smug being "better" than I am. More supportive, more liberal, more loving of my child. I'm a therapist, and one said she actually wanted to warn all my patients about me that I'm not who I seem to be. I said that all of gender ideology is not what it oh so simply, magically seems to be to her, and now we are not friends.
I have my issues with feminists and a lot of women who have those sentiments. But much of it is this need to be part of a group, usually the fist-pumping kind. But in no way do I hate anyone for being whatever they are. I despise the activist mentality among those who create trouble, like getting people arrested or pestering (instigating) people or by being violent themselves.
I actually like women, but we all idealize what kind of partner we'd like in life. Most of the time, it doesn't last long, and it seems most relationships are rather fleeting.
But I keep my distance from most opinionated people, even in the church I go to.
And now, since that confusing CEO murder which the media and fakers and know-it-alls have chimed in on while we don't know exactly WTF happened... I am ever-more cautious about everyone. People at work and old friends alike support murdering someone who might have F'd over millions of innocent patients.
I can't go there. I cannot begin rationalizing hate which leads to murder.
One domino and the nation can fall with all the demons flying everywhere so that we do not know who is for us and who is against us.
It's understandable to not want someone who appears like a man to be welcomed into a woman's or a girl's locker room. That is common sense. If someone dresses a certain way in public, like going to Macy's or something, they might want to consider wearing trousers and using the men's room for that excursion. Maybe if they're going to an LGBT play on Broadway, they can do what they do in Rome.
We all need to just be more mindful of one another in public. I think certain special rights have to be reconsidered for common sense among the general public b/c they also include children and folks who have more traditional views. Why do they have to step aside? We're all taxpayers, as these groups like to remind us. Yeah, well then we all need to be considered in mixed company. Just b/c one's nose is itchy doesn't mean it's nice to pick it in front of everyone.
Sometimes I wonder whether the Iranian approach to feminism might be the correct one.
I am a woman, a TERF, as gender critical as they come, and somewhat of an early wave feminist, and I fully agree with you. I think Me Too went way too far and over-reported male "toxicity," and all of us -- our sons, good men, even women, all of us -- are hurt by it.
Thanks for saying so, Lisa. Cheers.
Hey, me too, Lisa! :-)
The only thing I wonder about, Josh, is "average feminist." Are they really that blind, after all the water that's gone under the bridge? I am hoping not.
IMO, earlier (second wave) feminism was empowering and fun, though it gave way too much space to its "crazy ladies" who vilified men, and pushed the idea that girls and boys are interchangeable (who TF came up with that stupid idea anyway?!). Then it all went off the rails. The last time I saw Mary Daly was when she had become a grim lesbian separatist, and Andrea Dworkin with her preaching about the ubiquitous rape culture was all the rage. Sigh.
I will not any longer do any parsing or "benefit of the doubt nuance" trying to sort out "reasonable feminists" from non-reasonable ones. It doesn't work.
It's on women like you, and on anyone who calls themselves a feminist, to be clear about what you mean and what you don't mean. But choosing to call yourself a feminist, then getting upset with others like me for not "seeing feminism the way you see it, and spending time making sure to say and to get fine-grained," is not productive. Your preferred term *has been sullied objectively*. That's real. I didn't do that. Men didn't do it. Not my work to fix.
It's not on me. It's on those who use it. Repeated requests for me to do this result in me stopping all contact with such women/feminists.
Say huh?
I never said it wasn't on us. Your words brought me to muse what "average feminist" may mean nowadays.
Me getting upset? Huh? What? I am here for the fun. :-)
Sorry if I misread you.
I've been the gay "gelded patsy" and been mercilessly attacked when I ended friendships with toxic women. When I was younger I had many female friends. Now hardly any. Also let's be clear about who is keeping "trans" alive. It was the women at my job who clapped and wanted to have a party when my work colleague Mike became "Siobhan." It's only women at my job who still have pronouns in their email signatures. When my partner was at a class recently it was the women who dropped everything to fawn all over the troon that waltzed into the room. It is a woman we know who wants or needs to believe there is a certain cohort "gender dysphoric" people who are happier LARPing as the opposite sex. Insert whatever "not all's" you want.
Greg, I spent the first 40 year of my life mispronouncing that female name in my head. I had only ever seen it printed in the liner notes for Bananarama albums (Siobahn Fahey).
I thought there was a strange Irish girl's name pronounced "See-oh-bonn."
SAME! I thought that my whole life until Sunil corrected me.
When either side blame their problems on the other, they are being manipulated. Neither Men alone nor women alone create the problems we face now, but humanity in general, male and female, in partnership (as always) create society and when looking to blame, follow the Divider
It's another 'divide and conquer' strategy
Elderly TERF who - as usual - agrees with you, Josh.
I have a sister-in-law with a PhD in psychology who has spent her life in bitterness against men and is obsessed with "The Patriarchy". Unfortunately, she passed this on to her daughter, who is now a bitter, man-hating young woman. I also have a sister-in-law who is a Transhausen-by-proxy mother of a mentally deranged daughter who has been cosplaying "male" for the past several years, going as far as surgical butchery, which probably occurred when she was still a minor. Thank God my wife was the normal, intelligent girl in her family!
Men are men when they shrug and put their attention elsewhere. Find that dispassionate place in your heart that god put in every man. Feminist issues, gender issues are the expression of unhappiness in other people. Don't let it spoil your day.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Josh.
Feminism demands that women must first proclaim themselves as victims. This is the ball and chain that thwarts female empowerment. Instead of looking to free themselves, they sit in their slavery blaming the patriarchy. They find virtue in self abnegation...they choose the role of damsel in distress. And yet, they look to their 'oppressors' for succor...
Yes!!! The whole “empowerment” is BS. It’s training of covert narcissist (victim) manipulations.
Step into their authentic selves and take personal responsibility! Until they do, I can’t even bother to listen to them.
"We are the external locus of control onto which they project all of their problems so that they have to take zero responsibility for anything that happens to them, or anything wrong in society."
Abso-goddamn-lutely. This is the crux of the issue as far as I am concerned.
Can we bring back the term "femi-nazi"? I think that would be appropriate considering that they're already shaving their heads anyway.
There is a commenter on a blog I read who often makes a point at various times when the topic of discussion is "feminism" by using a certain turn of phrase. His comments sent me off to do a bit of research. Low and behold, "complementarity" became part of my lexicon.
"Men and women are considered complementary in nature, meaning they possess distinct yet balanced attributes and skills. This concept is rooted in various religious and philosophical traditions, including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism.
In Christianity, for instance, the idea of complementarity is often linked to the teachings of St. John Paul II, who emphasized the unique roles of men and women in marriage and family life. According to this view, men and women are equal in dignity and personhood but differ in their masculine and feminine characteristics, which are ordained by God. This distinction is reflected in the biblical account of creation, where Adam and Eve are depicted as complementary partners, with Adam representing the headship and Eve representing the helper/assistant role." [Many feminists' heads spin at this understanding. Like the vitriol they heap on "trad wives", they are incapable of assessing the possible validity of a complementary relationship with the opposite sex that has benefits for both parties.]
"In general, the idea of men and women being complementary in nature suggests that:
• Biological differences: Men and women have distinct biological characteristics, such as reproductive roles, that reflect their complementary nature.
• Different strengths and weaknesses: Men and women possess unique strengths and weaknesses, which are essential for a balanced and harmonious relationship.
• Interdependence: Complementarity implies a deep interdependence between men and women, where each partner relies on the other’s strengths and compensates for their weaknesses.
• Equality and dignity: Despite their differences, men and women are equal in dignity and personhood, with each having a unique contribution to make in family, society, and culture."
Just imagine - "...distinct yet balanced attributes and skills." "... equal in dignity and personhood..." It's there. Always has been. All of it - the way men and women should relate - exists in the place where adults and reality meet to discuss how to arrive at a more perfect place, understanding that mistakes are made but that by working together, over time, it's not only possible but also desirable to help each other succeed at being the best they can be. Viva la complementarity!
Yep.
But the way feminists react to this, you'd think that no man has ever been in a subordinate position. They truly seem to believe that only women have ever been in a non-top position in a hierarchy, and that all hierarchical relationships are abusive by nature.
It's disconnected from reality. Most men are in hierarchies all over the place with other men. I've been a basic staffer, I've been in the middle, and I've been the boss. I've been a subordinate to a female boss, too. I have zero problem taking orders from someone who's better at deciding those things than I am.
Where does this idea come from, I wonder?
A year ago on Twitter, I replied to a gender critical feminist and pointed out that trans ideology was a pathology promoted primarily by women. She told me that because a few men like Kinsey had created these ideologies, it was actually the fault of men that these ideas are spreading.
I couldn't help but feel annoyed by this because the majority of extreme ideas are created by men. You just don't see many women writing content like the Unabomber. Despite this, most outlandish ideas don't go far. In order for an idea to spread throughout societies and institutions, it has to have thousands, if not millions of footsoldiers....believers, spreaders and enforces of the dogma. It is women who are doing this in regard to transgenderism. By and large, men think it's completely stupid.
The tragedy is that human flourishing depends on both men and women appreciating each other, respecting each other, and working together -- especially in terms of maximizing the number of healthy, stable families (which is the number one way in which humanity flourishes).
Have there been men who treat women badly? Obviously, yes. What many who call themselves feminists seem to be blind to is women treating men badly. And that nothing good comes from constant anger heaped toward men. There are no thriving nations, nor thriving communities, nor thriving families amid such animosity. And if there are no thriving families, what hope is there for the next generation?