This puts me in mind of a rare piece of wisdom my Da used to say to my brothers and I: "I'd rather be punched in the jaw and called a prick than have someone try to talk me into surrender with honeyed words."
There's a kind of 'HR professional' tone that I see online and increasingly in the real world. It pretends to expertise (even omniscience) and presumes that it's the definition of decency and moral rightness, and so it addresses others (especially men) with a scolding, moralistic tone. It uses vague language and relies upon cultural buzzwords and already discredited concepts. It's not amenable to debate. It HATES to debate, preferring instead to use social pressure and emotional manipulation to get the people around to conform to its wishes.
How remarkable that people with this approach and communication style have been given absolute power to determine the recruitment, hiring, and selection of every large organization in the United States. The aversion to debate is especially frustrating.
Thanks. In my own experience, the feminist cat ladies in HR don't even try to hide their contempt for men. I complain about them to the CEO, who is at least in theory over their heads. When you consider that the job of HR is a first line of defense against a lawsuit by an employee, the CEO may get the message that HR will CAUSE a lawsuit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The cat ladies in HR may have the CEO by the short hairs.
Definitely with the HR types. The ones that feel it's necessary to lecture you and make you feel like a "little boy" being scolded by "mommy." BTW there are the men HR types too although not as many. They tend to have the manbun, wear some kind of social justice tee shirt and have the muscle mass of a frog. And almost always wearing a mask and surely heterosexual. I call them pussy boys. Even the gays won't claim them.
The worst is when someone says "you seem to have some issues," then tries to frame it as "compassion." 🙄 Please. The condescension and unearned sense of moral superiority is bad enough without adding EXTRA implications of moral superiority on top of it.
(Of course, if you call someone out on it, they'll just call you a liar or use it as further proof that you have issues. Or both.)
YES!! This needs to be said long and often by the majority of men. I've said for years that no man wants to fuck Mommy. The sooner women stop the wheedling, manipulating, second-guessing, nagging, and hagging, the better things will become.
Older female here. I agree, Josh. I also agree with what Tracy and Melody said. If I disagree with a man over something, I expect to get what I give. I hate being manipulated and having someone go all condescending on me - man or woman. I want a good, robust, throw down, get somewhere interaction. I much preferred working with men over women.
Well said and how i feel too. I expect to be treated with personal regard whether it is from a male or female - as I try to treat others. I hate the games and manipulations and gaslighting from anyone - having had a mother and her family all behave out of cluster B issues and not caring about personal responsibility but to force others to be responsible for their miseries. In my career, (retired now) I preferred respect and treating employees as fully responsible for their jobs and respecting their abilities and gifts to accomplish those jobs well. Many wanted me to be a babysitter and even tho they knew what they should be doing, they sat around expecting me as a mgr to babysit them as their mother. Nope. I railed against that irresponsible behavior. Respect me and my responsibilities as i respect theirs, all as parts of a team. But too often people bring their mental illness into work or social public dynamics expecting others to play along in their dysfunction. Unfortunately our culture has produced many who believe that is the way to be.
I’m the youngest girl of 6, 3 boys 3 girls. My oldest sister had left the house by the time I could remember anything and my middle sister took it upon herself to take a pseudo mom role. We used to fight constantly. She wanted to be in the role of authority, and in a way she was because she was 8 years older. But she had no idea how to wield it in any effective way. Obviously, she was a teenager.
She felt like she could tell me what to do whenever and I responded by simply being defiant. Tell me I “have” to do something? Like Josh said in the article, my first response is Fuck you and No. Even if it’s a minor thing.
One funny example was one time when I was looking for a job she was insisting that I needed to get a copy of my social security card (it had been lost in a move) right away and that I wouldn’t be able to get a job without it.
That was 8 years ago or so. I still don’t have a copy of it. Every job I’ve applied for has been satisfied by either an old W2 or old tax return.
I should probably get it at some point but a stubborn part of me wants to see how far I can get without one.
I would go further, and point out (in hopes you haven't planned this for your next article) that there are very effective ways for women to talk to men. A woman I met at a class to help couples communicate explained - with her husband present - that she had been able to get her husband to take over a large number of chores, simply by praising him when he did them, and not reacting when he did something she didn't like.
Is this the best approach? Please help because I'm not winning re big chores (simple things he does more than his fair share - he's a stay at home husband) but big jobs like crucial renovations (leaking roof, broken windows) take him weeks to attend to.
It's a very old joke that if a man says he will do something, he will - and there is no need to keep reminding him every three months... So if he's doing things in just weeks, that might be a win in of itself.
This is, strictly speaking, a sample size of one, but I've heard others say that this exact approach is used for training dogs and children and seems to work on men as well - as we thrive on female praise. And that does suggest a way forward: find things to praise him for, especially small repairs or improvements around the house. You could even start by suggesting such small things - and then offer the praise. It's addicting. The goal is to get him to do things because HE wants to do them, even if only for your admiration.
It also means holding your tongue when he is slow to do them, which is hard, as they frustrate you - but being nagged makes men less likely to do things.
Understand that this is an experiment - what worked for the woman I mentioned might not work for every woman, but It seems reasonable. Good luck!
The Empowered Wife by Laura Doyle is a great tool. She has a podcast too. All about appreciating and respecting your husband while still communicating your desires. Highly recommend.
As a married, handy guy, I'll confess..."Weeks" is not bad in my book for basic stuff. I think you're doing fine there. Now, a leaky roof in winter, that's an all- hands-on-deck problem. But I had a broken window and taped plastic over it until I could get to it. My wife, rarely, has asked me in to get on something ASAP. Because this is rare, and because she's usually/always right, I'm right onto it. Best of luck!
The biggest lesson I’ve learned is that resentment on my part will ruin everything every time. I’m a fix-it kind of person, a sahm. My husband is a tear-it-down-and-pay-somebody-to-rebuild-it kind of person.
It’s different for different people, but clear and prompt conversations usually let me avoid resentment.
And like dicentra says, just start. Start wrong, but cheerfully.
Loree, I totally agree with your approach, even though our life situations are pretty different. My husband is one of those guys who always knows what to do and how to fix things. The more I thank him, the more he does and the more cheerfully he does it. Now that he is retired and I'm working, he goes out of his way to do little things for me. He built a bird house for a carolina wren who lives on our property! He repaired a small piece of dive equipment for me: completely over the top in the amount of effort he put in to fix an inexpensive item.
In my mind, fixing stuff is part of his masculine identity. (There are lots of ways to be a man: my guy is not a football player-type manly guy. He is a Mr. Fixit manly guy.) After 40 years of marriage, I can honestly say that watching him fix stuff makes my heartbeat fast. I'll just leave it right there and say no more.
I figured out years ago that criticizing my husband is destructive to my marriage. I said to myself about my husband. "this man cannot stand the slightest negative information about himself." (insert self-righteous emoji here.) It finally occurred to me, "If you know this is true about him, and you keep criticizing him anyway, who is the real dope here?!" I made a point to stop criticizing and find things to praise. I'm not saying I always succeed in refraining from criticism. I am saying it is totally worth the effort, and not just with my husband.
We've been socialised to use soft control (and overt manipulation) as normal communication. Direct is difficult for people who are conflict avoidant, ironically creating conflict through their indirect, covert coercive approach (thinking they are being assertive and 'real'). I'm not talking about the deliberately hostile and antisocial people who troll.
I admire your conviction to keep spelling this out for your readers.
I can't account for the behavior or minds of anyone but me. But for me, no approach is going to work from a woman when her goal is to corral me. To make me stop saying what I'm saying. Or when she wants me to "say it differently" or "not say it."
If those are the goals, I will perceive her behavior as out of place, intrusive, and bitchy, regardless of her approach.
Those goals are never acceptable to me. Period.
Trying to get me to change my mind by going through facts and scenarios? That's just fine.
This is understandable, Josh. Nonetheless, women often perceive themselves—rightly or wrongly—in a tactical lose-lose situation when addressing problems or conflicts, especially with men. Quite simply, if they are direct, they are b*tches. This might seem an outmoded stereotype, yet I continue to see it played out in the workplace. On the other hand, indirect but effective communication can be accomplished successfully only by very skilled communicators and overall mature people. (Even for them, it can be difficult, draining, and overly time consuming.) *Ineffective* indirect communication, of course, can be anything from mild passive aggressive words and actions to much more hurtful or harmful manipulation and abuse. None of the above excuses women for using damaging conflict management tactics, but hopefully it helps to convey what a tightrope effective female communicators often walk daily.
Emphasis on, "overall mature people." Maturity seems to be in short supply in today's culture. That's why I appreciate this newsletter. Josh and most of his reader seem to be willing to self-examine (and thereby mature) at least once in a while!
You know what's crazy is that recently I've encountered this same behavior from a number of men on social media . Which makes me wonder , as Josh S. has mentioned feminization of men - Has this affected communication style as well? It seems so to me. I think social media itself is a feminine paradigm. The original algorythm design leveraged emotion over content I believe . It's very weird either way to notice men interacting in this manner womanner . Whatever
Yes. I have a dear friend who loves using the royal “we.” For example, he will say we now know that gender is a social construct. I don’t let him get away with that crap. I’ll say, who is we? It’s usually social scientists. I then attack them ruthlessly.
I ran into that just recently some guy using the Royal “we” in one of Josh’s comment threads. I clearly said “speak for yourself please” and he attacked me for being boring because he was sucking up to Josh by putting down himself and the rest of humanity. Ridiculous. Had nothing else to say but call me boring and he was moving on. Yeah, just go.
In my attempts to de-program myself from the 90s feminist worldview I held, I've been reading about how to be a better wife to my husband (ugh, I was so obnoxious sometimes and wondering why he wasn't more "masculine" or why he'd just ignore me). I learned it was my approach--how un-feminine it was and ultimately, how DISRESPECTFUL it was without me even realizing.
Turns out, men don't want to be coddled or "cherished" the way that women crave, they want RESPECT. And in our culture (and for those of us with personality disordered moms) learning how to respect men in the way they need takes practice. Turns out, all I had to "do" for my husband to be more ambitious and masculine was to STOP: giving advice, questioning his decisions, asking "how he was doing," and telling him what to do. It seems so obvious now and it's so embarrassing I was such a nag. I'm still growing in the area of respect but it really has made all the difference. Shout-out to Laura Doyle's book The Empowered Wife for help in this.
'Turns out, men don't want to be coddled or "cherished" the way that women crave, they want RESPECT. And in our culture (and for those of us with personality disordered moms) learning how to respect men in the way they need takes practice.'
I don't think a "personality disordered mom" is needed to be repulsed by the idea of respecting a man, but it probably increases the odds. Men do crave respect. For those who care, the Bible commands husbands to *love* their wife, and wives to *respect* their husband. This is the basis for the book "Love and Respect" and associated ministry of Emerson Eggerichs.
So true. The culture does enough to treat women not to respect men. I mentioned having a personality-disordered mom because they way she treated my dad sometimes was beyond the pale, and yet, he stayed. So confusing as a child.
The book Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus talks about how men want to be respected vs cherished and was very helpful to me as well. Laura Doyle's book is written from a woman's perspective and gives very detailed advice.
I read “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” as a teenager in the mid-1990s and to this day I still vividly remember how that book was derided and ridiculed when it was first released. I couldn’t (and still can’t) understand why the thought that men and women are different, could be so controversial.
One very characteristic thing about male inner life is that the respect they crave is actually typically from other men (plural) whereas the yearning for esteem from a woman is typically focused on one individual - the loved one/spouse, or the one who is imagined but not present yet.
Men's relationship to other men is a communal one, whereas towards women transpires one-to-one.
I was never a full-on feminist: I had too much economics training to buy their "women only make 59 cents to every dollar men make" BS. (An introductory econ class will straighten that out, and I have a Ph.D. for gosh sakes.) But I was a "careerist" type of feminist and that was destructive enough. It sounds plausible that "I could do great things if only he did his share at home" which morphs into "equal in absolutely every dimension at home" which morphs into "License for Score-Keeping and Unlimited Resentment and Nagging." Not a recipe for any kind of enjoyable life. And of course, the opening premise is incorrect: seeking "equality" is a dead-end for a whole bunch of reasons.
This puts me in mind of a rare piece of wisdom my Da used to say to my brothers and I: "I'd rather be punched in the jaw and called a prick than have someone try to talk me into surrender with honeyed words."
This. Every time.
There's a kind of 'HR professional' tone that I see online and increasingly in the real world. It pretends to expertise (even omniscience) and presumes that it's the definition of decency and moral rightness, and so it addresses others (especially men) with a scolding, moralistic tone. It uses vague language and relies upon cultural buzzwords and already discredited concepts. It's not amenable to debate. It HATES to debate, preferring instead to use social pressure and emotional manipulation to get the people around to conform to its wishes.
How remarkable that people with this approach and communication style have been given absolute power to determine the recruitment, hiring, and selection of every large organization in the United States. The aversion to debate is especially frustrating.
https://jmpolemic.substack.com/p/feminism-as-entitlement-pt-4
Thanks. In my own experience, the feminist cat ladies in HR don't even try to hide their contempt for men. I complain about them to the CEO, who is at least in theory over their heads. When you consider that the job of HR is a first line of defense against a lawsuit by an employee, the CEO may get the message that HR will CAUSE a lawsuit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The cat ladies in HR may have the CEO by the short hairs.
Definitely with the HR types. The ones that feel it's necessary to lecture you and make you feel like a "little boy" being scolded by "mommy." BTW there are the men HR types too although not as many. They tend to have the manbun, wear some kind of social justice tee shirt and have the muscle mass of a frog. And almost always wearing a mask and surely heterosexual. I call them pussy boys. Even the gays won't claim them.
The worst is when someone says "you seem to have some issues," then tries to frame it as "compassion." 🙄 Please. The condescension and unearned sense of moral superiority is bad enough without adding EXTRA implications of moral superiority on top of it.
(Of course, if you call someone out on it, they'll just call you a liar or use it as further proof that you have issues. Or both.)
People saying "Are you ok?" Is the new gotcha
🍞
I’m a woman and I completely agree- I tend to be direct and don’t like condescending tones to anyone anyway 🥰
YES!! This needs to be said long and often by the majority of men. I've said for years that no man wants to fuck Mommy. The sooner women stop the wheedling, manipulating, second-guessing, nagging, and hagging, the better things will become.
Older female here. I agree, Josh. I also agree with what Tracy and Melody said. If I disagree with a man over something, I expect to get what I give. I hate being manipulated and having someone go all condescending on me - man or woman. I want a good, robust, throw down, get somewhere interaction. I much preferred working with men over women.
Well said and how i feel too. I expect to be treated with personal regard whether it is from a male or female - as I try to treat others. I hate the games and manipulations and gaslighting from anyone - having had a mother and her family all behave out of cluster B issues and not caring about personal responsibility but to force others to be responsible for their miseries. In my career, (retired now) I preferred respect and treating employees as fully responsible for their jobs and respecting their abilities and gifts to accomplish those jobs well. Many wanted me to be a babysitter and even tho they knew what they should be doing, they sat around expecting me as a mgr to babysit them as their mother. Nope. I railed against that irresponsible behavior. Respect me and my responsibilities as i respect theirs, all as parts of a team. But too often people bring their mental illness into work or social public dynamics expecting others to play along in their dysfunction. Unfortunately our culture has produced many who believe that is the way to be.
I’m the youngest girl of 6, 3 boys 3 girls. My oldest sister had left the house by the time I could remember anything and my middle sister took it upon herself to take a pseudo mom role. We used to fight constantly. She wanted to be in the role of authority, and in a way she was because she was 8 years older. But she had no idea how to wield it in any effective way. Obviously, she was a teenager.
She felt like she could tell me what to do whenever and I responded by simply being defiant. Tell me I “have” to do something? Like Josh said in the article, my first response is Fuck you and No. Even if it’s a minor thing.
One funny example was one time when I was looking for a job she was insisting that I needed to get a copy of my social security card (it had been lost in a move) right away and that I wouldn’t be able to get a job without it.
That was 8 years ago or so. I still don’t have a copy of it. Every job I’ve applied for has been satisfied by either an old W2 or old tax return.
I should probably get it at some point but a stubborn part of me wants to see how far I can get without one.
I can relate to this.
👏 👏 👏 💯
Absolutely.
I would go further, and point out (in hopes you haven't planned this for your next article) that there are very effective ways for women to talk to men. A woman I met at a class to help couples communicate explained - with her husband present - that she had been able to get her husband to take over a large number of chores, simply by praising him when he did them, and not reacting when he did something she didn't like.
Is this the best approach? Please help because I'm not winning re big chores (simple things he does more than his fair share - he's a stay at home husband) but big jobs like crucial renovations (leaking roof, broken windows) take him weeks to attend to.
It's a very old joke that if a man says he will do something, he will - and there is no need to keep reminding him every three months... So if he's doing things in just weeks, that might be a win in of itself.
This is, strictly speaking, a sample size of one, but I've heard others say that this exact approach is used for training dogs and children and seems to work on men as well - as we thrive on female praise. And that does suggest a way forward: find things to praise him for, especially small repairs or improvements around the house. You could even start by suggesting such small things - and then offer the praise. It's addicting. The goal is to get him to do things because HE wants to do them, even if only for your admiration.
It also means holding your tongue when he is slow to do them, which is hard, as they frustrate you - but being nagged makes men less likely to do things.
Understand that this is an experiment - what worked for the woman I mentioned might not work for every woman, but It seems reasonable. Good luck!
The Empowered Wife by Laura Doyle is a great tool. She has a podcast too. All about appreciating and respecting your husband while still communicating your desires. Highly recommend.
If you want the project to start sooner, start doing it yourself, even if you're doing it wrong.
Especially if you're doing it wrong.
If you catch my meaning.
As a married, handy guy, I'll confess..."Weeks" is not bad in my book for basic stuff. I think you're doing fine there. Now, a leaky roof in winter, that's an all- hands-on-deck problem. But I had a broken window and taped plastic over it until I could get to it. My wife, rarely, has asked me in to get on something ASAP. Because this is rare, and because she's usually/always right, I'm right onto it. Best of luck!
The biggest lesson I’ve learned is that resentment on my part will ruin everything every time. I’m a fix-it kind of person, a sahm. My husband is a tear-it-down-and-pay-somebody-to-rebuild-it kind of person.
It’s different for different people, but clear and prompt conversations usually let me avoid resentment.
And like dicentra says, just start. Start wrong, but cheerfully.
Loree, I totally agree with your approach, even though our life situations are pretty different. My husband is one of those guys who always knows what to do and how to fix things. The more I thank him, the more he does and the more cheerfully he does it. Now that he is retired and I'm working, he goes out of his way to do little things for me. He built a bird house for a carolina wren who lives on our property! He repaired a small piece of dive equipment for me: completely over the top in the amount of effort he put in to fix an inexpensive item.
In my mind, fixing stuff is part of his masculine identity. (There are lots of ways to be a man: my guy is not a football player-type manly guy. He is a Mr. Fixit manly guy.) After 40 years of marriage, I can honestly say that watching him fix stuff makes my heartbeat fast. I'll just leave it right there and say no more.
Thanks everyone, these are great suggestions. Going to implement!
I figured out years ago that criticizing my husband is destructive to my marriage. I said to myself about my husband. "this man cannot stand the slightest negative information about himself." (insert self-righteous emoji here.) It finally occurred to me, "If you know this is true about him, and you keep criticizing him anyway, who is the real dope here?!" I made a point to stop criticizing and find things to praise. I'm not saying I always succeed in refraining from criticism. I am saying it is totally worth the effort, and not just with my husband.
I assume that those who talk like that are sociopaths
We've been socialised to use soft control (and overt manipulation) as normal communication. Direct is difficult for people who are conflict avoidant, ironically creating conflict through their indirect, covert coercive approach (thinking they are being assertive and 'real'). I'm not talking about the deliberately hostile and antisocial people who troll.
I admire your conviction to keep spelling this out for your readers.
Yes. Unfortunately, the clichéd stereotype that women who communicate directly are b*tches is very much alive and well.
I can't account for the behavior or minds of anyone but me. But for me, no approach is going to work from a woman when her goal is to corral me. To make me stop saying what I'm saying. Or when she wants me to "say it differently" or "not say it."
If those are the goals, I will perceive her behavior as out of place, intrusive, and bitchy, regardless of her approach.
Those goals are never acceptable to me. Period.
Trying to get me to change my mind by going through facts and scenarios? That's just fine.
Women socialize women to use soft pleading language.
Men don’t.
This is understandable, Josh. Nonetheless, women often perceive themselves—rightly or wrongly—in a tactical lose-lose situation when addressing problems or conflicts, especially with men. Quite simply, if they are direct, they are b*tches. This might seem an outmoded stereotype, yet I continue to see it played out in the workplace. On the other hand, indirect but effective communication can be accomplished successfully only by very skilled communicators and overall mature people. (Even for them, it can be difficult, draining, and overly time consuming.) *Ineffective* indirect communication, of course, can be anything from mild passive aggressive words and actions to much more hurtful or harmful manipulation and abuse. None of the above excuses women for using damaging conflict management tactics, but hopefully it helps to convey what a tightrope effective female communicators often walk daily.
Emphasis on, "overall mature people." Maturity seems to be in short supply in today's culture. That's why I appreciate this newsletter. Josh and most of his reader seem to be willing to self-examine (and thereby mature) at least once in a while!
You know what's crazy is that recently I've encountered this same behavior from a number of men on social media . Which makes me wonder , as Josh S. has mentioned feminization of men - Has this affected communication style as well? It seems so to me. I think social media itself is a feminine paradigm. The original algorythm design leveraged emotion over content I believe . It's very weird either way to notice men interacting in this manner womanner . Whatever
Yes. I have a dear friend who loves using the royal “we.” For example, he will say we now know that gender is a social construct. I don’t let him get away with that crap. I’ll say, who is we? It’s usually social scientists. I then attack them ruthlessly.
Can't stand the "we now know" by proxy infallibility . Argh
I ran into that just recently some guy using the Royal “we” in one of Josh’s comment threads. I clearly said “speak for yourself please” and he attacked me for being boring because he was sucking up to Josh by putting down himself and the rest of humanity. Ridiculous. Had nothing else to say but call me boring and he was moving on. Yeah, just go.
Shame on you for telling women how to talk to men! You mean like that? Yeah, I’d show them door.
In my attempts to de-program myself from the 90s feminist worldview I held, I've been reading about how to be a better wife to my husband (ugh, I was so obnoxious sometimes and wondering why he wasn't more "masculine" or why he'd just ignore me). I learned it was my approach--how un-feminine it was and ultimately, how DISRESPECTFUL it was without me even realizing.
Turns out, men don't want to be coddled or "cherished" the way that women crave, they want RESPECT. And in our culture (and for those of us with personality disordered moms) learning how to respect men in the way they need takes practice. Turns out, all I had to "do" for my husband to be more ambitious and masculine was to STOP: giving advice, questioning his decisions, asking "how he was doing," and telling him what to do. It seems so obvious now and it's so embarrassing I was such a nag. I'm still growing in the area of respect but it really has made all the difference. Shout-out to Laura Doyle's book The Empowered Wife for help in this.
Also, this Substack touches on that nagging tone you mention, and blames millennials for it: https://theupheaval.substack.com/p/on-millennial-snot
'Turns out, men don't want to be coddled or "cherished" the way that women crave, they want RESPECT. And in our culture (and for those of us with personality disordered moms) learning how to respect men in the way they need takes practice.'
I don't think a "personality disordered mom" is needed to be repulsed by the idea of respecting a man, but it probably increases the odds. Men do crave respect. For those who care, the Bible commands husbands to *love* their wife, and wives to *respect* their husband. This is the basis for the book "Love and Respect" and associated ministry of Emerson Eggerichs.
So true. The culture does enough to treat women not to respect men. I mentioned having a personality-disordered mom because they way she treated my dad sometimes was beyond the pale, and yet, he stayed. So confusing as a child.
The book Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus talks about how men want to be respected vs cherished and was very helpful to me as well. Laura Doyle's book is written from a woman's perspective and gives very detailed advice.
I read “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” as a teenager in the mid-1990s and to this day I still vividly remember how that book was derided and ridiculed when it was first released. I couldn’t (and still can’t) understand why the thought that men and women are different, could be so controversial.
One very characteristic thing about male inner life is that the respect they crave is actually typically from other men (plural) whereas the yearning for esteem from a woman is typically focused on one individual - the loved one/spouse, or the one who is imagined but not present yet.
Men's relationship to other men is a communal one, whereas towards women transpires one-to-one.
I was never a full-on feminist: I had too much economics training to buy their "women only make 59 cents to every dollar men make" BS. (An introductory econ class will straighten that out, and I have a Ph.D. for gosh sakes.) But I was a "careerist" type of feminist and that was destructive enough. It sounds plausible that "I could do great things if only he did his share at home" which morphs into "equal in absolutely every dimension at home" which morphs into "License for Score-Keeping and Unlimited Resentment and Nagging." Not a recipe for any kind of enjoyable life. And of course, the opening premise is incorrect: seeking "equality" is a dead-end for a whole bunch of reasons.
Amen, sister!
I'm right there with you, Natalie.