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Carol L's avatar

Another excellent book on this subject is Them Before Us by Katy Faust. https://thembeforeus.com She advocates for children's rights.

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dicentra's avatar

Here's her interview with Jordan Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Q0WXBH0HM

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Cary Cotterman's avatar

I'm grateful that with all their flaws, and the frequent unhappiness in their marriage, my parents stayed together and provided my brother and me with a more-or-less stable childhood.

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dicentra's avatar

"Not because he 'turned out fine.' He didn’t turn out fine. He became a stronger man and a good father in spite of his childhood, not because of it."

Most people born into his type of situation don't "turn out fine" at all. They develop Cluster B personality disorders, they become addicts, they end up in jail. If they do marry or pair up, they're abusive or neglectful or both. They produce broken children. They can't hold down jobs. They live on the streets.

I don't know why some people manage to become reasonably functional adults after nightmare childhoods. God bless every one that can. And God help those who can't, which is the majority.

"'Divorce him — your kids need to see that their mother is happy,' we say to bolster our friends. Or, 'You need to live your best life, and it’s great for your kids to see a working mom in action!'"

Slay kweeen.

My narcissistic father was abusive. Not horribly so -- no beatings, no sexual dimension -- but the emotional abuse was very real. My mother stayed with him until we kids were well out of the house. When I was 40 (the oldest child), she finally left him.

I used to be angry with her for staying. "Why didn't you remove your children from this horrible situation?" I fumed to myself. Years later I've realized that she did the right thing. Because we had a father in the home, we could afford to live in a neighborhood full of functional adults, which set an amazingly good example for us. My mom stayed home to raise us, and having her there full time was a definite plus, because she had more influence on us than he did. My father did have his virtues -- he had a farmer's work ethic (having been raised on a farm), he raised a huge veggie garden to fill our pantry, he had no vices.

And I developed a healthy degree of self-discipline and respect for the rules, as well as the other strengths that a father provides to his children when he's living with them. My mother's skill set was secretary level, and if she'd split from him, we'd have lived in terrible poverty in bad neighborhoods, and we'd have borne the scars that a broken family inevitably inflicts.

So in our case, staying with my dad was the right thing for my mom to do. After she left, she didn't need to go into therapy or anything, because she'd been raised by normie parents, so she had a healthy baseline. We kids have had to deal with some minor stuff, but we're all functional adults. My three siblings married well and have raised functional kids. The cycle was broken by our generation.

(And yes, there are definitely cases where mom (or dad) needs to grab the kids and run, because the abusive parent is destroying the children's souls. If there's sexual abuse, if there's severe violence, if there's persistent substance abuse, if there's something else extreme, then the results of staying are worse than leaving.)

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Josh Slocum's avatar

You consistently write things that make me see these issues more deeply, and think about them in ways outside my mental ruts. Thank you.

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Natalie C.'s avatar

"Kids are resilient" reminds me of the phrase/idea "We all just try to do a little better than our parents did, that's what matters."

No. That's not what matters. What matters is breaking the cycle of dysfunction. My brother said that to me the other day about him and his on/off-again girlfriend and the issues they're having with my 5 yo niece. It's copium. It's what you say when you know, deep down, that there are issues you need to resolve but aren't because it would be really, really hard. It's extremely difficult to own your issues while you have children, and we should acknowledge the flawed good our parents attempted given their own dysfunctional childhoods, but you're either working your hardest breaking the cycle or you're not.

My parents and their siblings did not break the cycle, they did do "little better than their parents" and the number of cousins I have with addictions and disorders is about the same as my parents generation. Do or do not, there is no try.

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piematters's avatar

I cannot wait to read this. I have the book Out from Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting which talks about being raised/not raised by a gay father who was more interested in himself/sex partners rather than his daughter/children. Good book. Also, would like to read Them Before Us.

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Jon Midget's avatar

A fantastic review, Josh.

And a good reminder: Kids need their mothers. Kids need their fathers. And they need parents who are faithful to each other and trying their best to help the kids learn to be the next generation of faithful spouses and good, dedicated parents.

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George Romey's avatar

Kids are resilient goes to this mentality that children are mini adults. They can be exposed to sexually explicit material and conversations. They allegedly know whether they’re in the wrong body. They’re a peer, a friend and a confidant to their parents. They can understand complexities of life and complications. Like a true friend they need constant coddling.

No, children are fragile. They don’t understand life, adult conversations and consequences. They need guidance and a sense of safety and protection but with a level of independence and learning.

They’re not a fashion statement, your best friend or your mental and physical punching bag.

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Diane Perry's avatar

Hey, I thought you'd love this parody. Sorry for being off-topic, just commenting on the most recent post.

https://youtu.be/poFvtEy0spE

DOGE - Parody of Madonna's Vogue

i tagged Bill Oetjen and Christopher Felker last week when I found it.

I'm in Twitter Jail, but you blocked me immediately after saying you'd mute me if I replied, but I hadn't said anything further. I was going to ask to change the block to a mute, so I could watch the show on Twitter, but I've been watching on YouTube via the CleanTube app that suppresses YouTube ads.

Regards,

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