UPDATE: I have the belt, finally. How did I achieve this extraordinary task? How was I able to get this belt when no one between four different stores (and three incorrect parts delivered to said stores) could even confirm that the common part exists and has a universal identifying number for easy location?
Found a mom and pop lawnmower repair shop I didn’t know existed.
The shop is 50 years old. Guy and Lisa are in their 70s, and have run the business their entire married life. You walk in and instantly know that if they don’t have it, the part never existed.
Read above. They’re in their 70s. This means they’re from the Before Times When Thinking Was Like A Thing? They looked at me when I spoke. They did not push me to “find it on my phone.”
I told them I was an ignorant city boy, and that I’d ask stupid questions, and please teach me like a five year old. I won’t be offended.
Lisa explained to me how lawnmowers are branded, which numbers are necessary in order to connect the model to parts, and where to find them. She cleared up all my confusion about this in one spoken paragraph. No one else I talked to could do this.
I took pictures of every single name, model number, serial number, or any sequence of letters and numbers on the machine that could possibly be necessary for this task. Lisa praised my organization and logical approach (she actually recognized that I wasn’t stupid, and that I was gathering information the right way).
No “Gen Z stare.” No “if we had it it would be [wave arm in general direction] over there.”
I must have sounded like a fool telling Guy and Lisa how grateful I was for their help. This is what they do every day, because it’s how normal business grownups act. But it’s almost impossible to find in most places, and you almost never find it in anyone younger than 45.
Well, Frank, I frankly believe that a wife and/or husband has a duty to provide sex for his/her mate, and if either refuses, should be reasonable grounds for divorce.
Thanks. I agree completely. There is a statute called “alienation of affection”, which encompasses both cheating and one partner refusing to have sex. However, it is only on the books on two states
Well, darn. Oklahoma ought to be the 7th! A little surprised New Mexico and Hawaii are part of that group - maybe their stupid legislature don't know it's there 🤣
The legal system is so badly broken, that it would be almost impossible to get a judgment under that law, anyway.
Here's another example of selective empathy: in California, citizens that have to take the written driver license test are asked about the correct size of baby seats that are needed in their car. Like, what the hell? In the meantime, they hand out commercial driver licenses to illegal aliens that can't speak English.
That entire empathy thing began in the 90s and yes it’s usually confused with sympathy. I can’t have empathy for a man that thinks they’re a woman because I don’t know how that feels and more importantly it’s not a real thing. Anymore than someone thinking they are are a cat. As far as customer service the more technology advances human customer service has gotten worse or just disappeared.
I'm not sure which is worse: interacting with a chat bot, or interacting with someone in a foreign country who lives in a different culture and can barely speak my language.
About cognitive empathy... some folks say psychopaths have cognitive empathy when they sense their target's fear or hurt etc. I say it's just predatory attunement that has no business calling itself empathy. The retort is, but that is just them weaponizing empathy. Hm. Any thoughts, anyone?
I think the last five years have broken people's brains, especially if they got the jab. Things were already bad before that because so many people are on multiple prescription drugs, but it really does seem worse now after the shots and boosters.
It's amazing you just mentioned this, because just today, my friend sent me this link showing a link between the Covid vaccine and a spike in mental illness. Just read under "Abstract." https://ijirms.in/index.php/ijirms/article/view/2090?s=03
That was a general statement. Much of what is promoted as empathy is not.
For example, the woke Westerner's notion of the Gazan mindset is about as far outside reality as can be. She envisions a poor, oppressed "minority" who shares her own woke "principles", and she demands that policy regard Gazans accordingly.
The actual Gazan would want her executed for her LGBTQ practice, among other things, and doesn't remotely fit her caricature. She has no genuine empathy for him because she doesn't understand him, and she doesn't want to.
JD, thank you for your empathy, I needed it, you helped Josh provide it, and I received it without any out of pocket expense at the moment - there might be hell to pay for my roughly 15 minutes of quiet reading of substacks cuz I'm supposed to walk my daughter's dog, but reading this substack and your comment about people with "Gazan mindsets" - which I loved - making me feel lighter on my feet, therefore giving me a better fast paced walk, good for both my AND the doggie's health - and making it easier to handle the very, very upperclass California seaside town that is packed to the brim with quaint 1,200 sq ft Victorian-or-various-other- style homes that are next to huge raucous 30,000 sq ft mega mansions all squeezed inside a few square miles of small town with its very own police force and station house, a fire department, 2 libraries, 2 large performance theaters as well as two 49 seats or less theaters, and one outdoor theater that is Hollywood-bowl-style-but-more-intimate-200-seats, AND a former 1930's movie theater since converted to an outdoor mall area with a Tiffany's jewelry, and well over 40 restaurants, all of this surrounded by blocks and blocks - and blocks - of homes with lawn signs very prominently displayed, packed with virtue signaling insanity, including one sign on the lawn of a 25 million dollar mansion accompanied by ocean sounds drifting in on the gentle breeze escorting wisps of sea mist, last night lit by a beautiful gibbous moon -- the lawn sign beseeching "Defund the Police", and I'm not 100% positive this is a good idea, I need to mull it over, after I stop by their house to see if the door's unlocked, in which case I can make a sandwich with whatever's in that fridge of theirs, and also I'm out of baggies so I'll let the dog do his blasting of shit, also piss, but he's focused on the shit right now, I can tell. I'll leave them a note telling them they sell carpet cleaner at the local Ralph's, my note will say I think it's in aisle 13, or 14, maybe 15, who knows, and also I'm gonna borrow one of their lamps, maybe two, for a few weeks to read great sub-stacks like Josh Slocum's, as well as great comments like yours, and I might forget to return that lamp, ever, but I have huge amounts of empathy for the homeowners, one time (true story) my wife had a home intruder who had followed her around her college campus for over a week without her knowing, then late one night he climbed in through her 3rd floor terrace window to rape and kill her with the big knife in his hand, but when he told her to roll over face down on her bed, she knew this would be the end of her life, so he told the psycho she knew he was going to rape her but she's about to piss the bed so will he let her use the bathroom, which he agreed to, and she ran inside and slammed the door and began screaming out the window "police! Help!", and he ran. Then the police arrived in force and took his description, and luckily had dropped his knife. A few weeks later he tried raping another woman using the same routine and actions and weapon, and she literally blew his head off with a shotgun. His prints on his knife that the police were able to get matched the prints on my wife's knife - that the police were able to get and the perp had borrowed for a few minutes - as the police surmised cuz police often have much much more experience in this sort of crime stopping stuff, the police do, and police are often funded for that reason, same with the phone number "911", and anyone can call it, unlike the private security guards that sit in huts in front of massive private security gates often surrounding very high end developments that only very rich people can afford... and I'm thinking one day when I see a lawn sign I'm going to knock on their door and tell them "Thank you for your service". BUT... maybe I won't cuz they might think I'm even close to serious.
JD Free, you substituted another caricature for hers. I have no idea which one is accurate, although I lean towards yours.
In the political realm, for my own sanity, I refuse to endorse the feelings (not empathy) of someone regarding something of which I have little to no understanding. Like other commenters, I believe this nonsense really took off in 1992. In the first presidential debate, G.W. Bush was prepared to talk about his lack of “the vision thing,” but when Clinton started claiming to “feel your pain,” Bush looked around to no one in particular with a puzzled look on his face as if he was in the wrong TV studio.
I did indeed substitute one caricature for another, though we have the word of countless interviewed Gazans that mine is correct. Regardless, I do not profess to "empathize" with any of these people, nor do I expect my words to be given special weight or credit because of "empathy". I do not call myself a superior person because of "empathy".
You really touched on a few things in my wheelhouse. I agree that cognitive empathy has a sacrificial, selfless nature, juxtaposed with the hollow moral high ground of virtue signaling through the empty declaration of possessing emotional, or affective empathy.
The tough part is dealing with those that don’t communicate in sacrificial terms. They don’t think of the other person. Often it’s because they were never taught to. I’ve found that even the most fundamental attributes we think others “should know” still must often be taught, based on the heritable facets of personality.
I had a “Josh-like-public-interaction” with a Gen Z girl at the local botanical garden’s bistro Sunday. As we approached, the hostess at the booth up front she didn’t even look up at my husband and I. She was dripping with annoyance as she continued not to look up at us while informing about the 45 minute wait, to which we cheerfully agreed. She didn’t look at us while taking my phone number. The whole interaction happened with zero eye contact, and an openly hostile attitude. And I know she was capable of smiling because the minute we walked away she was laughing and joking with co-workers.
This is the kind of thing that makes people dread any type of unfamiliar interaction - via phone or otherwise. Just a general hatred for your fellow humans.
I am incredibly hard of hearing even with hearing aids. I constantly have to ask people to look at me when they speak so I can see their lips. Nobody is used to doing that anymore.
Josh I think you’d really enjoy Joe Rigney’s book “The Sin of Empathy “ . He also recently did a fantastic (IMO) interview (titled the same) on Becket Cook’s YouTube channel, made some great points on the topic.
This happens to me constantly, as well--the blank stare that says, 'I don't understand what you're asking, I do not know what to do about it, and I'm scared.' The slow breakdown of society as seen one interaction at a time.
I'm an X'r as well and it seems like this started about 10 years or so ago (smartphones/social media) and has gotten exponentially worse since Covid. No one under 45 knows how to think on their feet, outside of a script.
I have had so many of these communications over the past few months- and I live in a place that is still somewhat normal. This goes far past a reasonable expectation for customers to be courteous in busy or bustling situations. At first I thought it was a problem with employee training but it seems to be a problem across businesses, medical offices, government services, etc. No one takes ownership of even basic questions but they very much want you to understand how they feel about what's taking place at their job. Everything feels like a chore now. I find myself procrastinating for even basic calls to double check things like a dentist appointment because there is no telling how much/little the person on the other end of the line will know.
I remember this nonsense starting with Bill 'I feel your pain' Clinton. Back then I said, 'No I feel my pain, you're trying to distract me'.
What helped me, years ago in the workplace, was when I had to ask a manager for her help but was stressed and intimidated. 'Help me help you' was the perfect response, I was able to tell her what I needed her to provide.
So, what I think, as someone who's had to adapt to my own poor attention span and memory in order to earn a living -
As both a customer and a service person, I've simply had to always write everything down to make sure I get the accurate facts and details straight. So I have to stop and ask the other person for their details, repeat back to confirm, and make myself a reminder how and when to follow up. If I can't help or have any more info, I say so. But I don't assume anything.
It’s difficult when they see customers as interrupting what they want to be doing. The message, “ the customer isn’t interrupting your day; they are the reason you are hear,” has been preached at customer service folk for decades. It’s probably worse now because of smart phones.
I’m begging this guy in the most deferential, soft, meek voice. I’m larding it with “I hear you, man you must be busy. I appreciate you.” He won’t fucking answer my question.
Did the guy ever call you back? I've come to realize that when some employee of any company tells me he's going to call me back, there's about a 10 percent chance it's going to happen. I don't know if they're lying when they tell me they're going to call, or if they're just so incompetent and uninterested they don't make any effort to remember. Also, there's a phenomenon that almost always happens: when, after waiting hours or days past the time the employee promised to call, I can't take the stress anymore and I call him, he always says "oh, I was just about to pick up the phone to call you."
Nope. I called back right now. He's still ranting at me that I'm 12th in queue. I tried so hard. I said "I know how busy you are, I feel for you. Friend, I'm not yelling at you. I'm only trying to ask if you've ordered it. I appreciate you and I'm not trying to jump in line but respectfully you won't answer my question. What can I do differently?"
You believe that managers care about this? I’m sorry to say that they don’t. That’s not real anymore. This IS the culture of business now. The “managers” are young people, too.
It's a bad idea for someone from a business to say they will call you back. For me, it induces anxiety. It means I have to keep my phone with me constantly for an indefinite time. Will they call back within the hour? Today? Tomorrow? Ever? Can I take a shower or leave the house without missing this one-time call? Can I use the phone at all? (I've had calls from friends go directly to voice mail without the phone ringing while I'm holding it in my hand.) Since the business may have multiple phone lines there's no guarantee that the number they call from will be the number you called. They could call from a personal phone. There may not be any recognizable caller ID, and since I get many spam calls I usually ignore any calls that aren't from my contacts. I would rather stay on hold for an hour or call back later myself than accept a "call back" option.
As usual, you excel at giving language to something I've noticed but haven't found language to express.
This has turned up quite often in my own life with regard to mathematics. Because so many people have some kind of trauma from a shitty math teacher and mathematics is culturally coded to be almost synonymous with intelligence (i.e. if you're not great at it, you're not very smart, and vice versa, both of which are bullshit) there are a lot of minefields here. If I need to talk math with someone and I pitch it above their level, I risk insulting them or, worse, not communicating at all -- because they may hesitate to admit they don't understand. But if I pitch it below their level, I risk insulting them from the other end -- "this bitch thinks I'm dumb, doesn't she?" So I've settled on a short disclaimer. "Listen, anytime I talk math I tend to geek out and I can often miss if I'm losing my conversational partners, so please, please interrupt me if I'm going too fast or too slow. I don't want to waste your time covering ground you're familiar with but I also don't want to skip any interim steps, and I'm highly likely to do both in the same conversation."
This frequently results in laughter and an assurance that they're so bad at math that they can barely make change, but the rest of the time it results in some kind of frustration, as if they're annoyed that I thought about what they might be thinking.
And yet, I cannot bring myself to NOT think about what they're thinking -- not when it matters. Which makes me wonder just how much of common sense is really common.
UPDATE: I have the belt, finally. How did I achieve this extraordinary task? How was I able to get this belt when no one between four different stores (and three incorrect parts delivered to said stores) could even confirm that the common part exists and has a universal identifying number for easy location?
Found a mom and pop lawnmower repair shop I didn’t know existed.
The shop is 50 years old. Guy and Lisa are in their 70s, and have run the business their entire married life. You walk in and instantly know that if they don’t have it, the part never existed.
Read above. They’re in their 70s. This means they’re from the Before Times When Thinking Was Like A Thing? They looked at me when I spoke. They did not push me to “find it on my phone.”
I told them I was an ignorant city boy, and that I’d ask stupid questions, and please teach me like a five year old. I won’t be offended.
Lisa explained to me how lawnmowers are branded, which numbers are necessary in order to connect the model to parts, and where to find them. She cleared up all my confusion about this in one spoken paragraph. No one else I talked to could do this.
I took pictures of every single name, model number, serial number, or any sequence of letters and numbers on the machine that could possibly be necessary for this task. Lisa praised my organization and logical approach (she actually recognized that I wasn’t stupid, and that I was gathering information the right way).
No “Gen Z stare.” No “if we had it it would be [wave arm in general direction] over there.”
I must have sounded like a fool telling Guy and Lisa how grateful I was for their help. This is what they do every day, because it’s how normal business grownups act. But it’s almost impossible to find in most places, and you almost never find it in anyone younger than 45.
Makes one almost cry to be treated normally, like a person. Glad you got your part!
I have seen some feminist-leaning male shrinks on here, that think a man wanting sex from his wife is "male entitlement".
Well, Frank, I frankly believe that a wife and/or husband has a duty to provide sex for his/her mate, and if either refuses, should be reasonable grounds for divorce.
Thanks. I agree completely. There is a statute called “alienation of affection”, which encompasses both cheating and one partner refusing to have sex. However, it is only on the books on two states
Alienation of affection. Brilliantly named. I didn't know only two states have that statute. 🤔 Oklahoma and Utah?
My bad - it is 6 states:
As of 2025, alienation of affection laws are recognized in six U.S. states: North Carolina, Mississippi, New Mexico, South Dakota, Utah, and Hawaii.
Well, darn. Oklahoma ought to be the 7th! A little surprised New Mexico and Hawaii are part of that group - maybe their stupid legislature don't know it's there 🤣
The legal system is so badly broken, that it would be almost impossible to get a judgment under that law, anyway.
Here's another example of selective empathy: in California, citizens that have to take the written driver license test are asked about the correct size of baby seats that are needed in their car. Like, what the hell? In the meantime, they hand out commercial driver licenses to illegal aliens that can't speak English.
That entire empathy thing began in the 90s and yes it’s usually confused with sympathy. I can’t have empathy for a man that thinks they’re a woman because I don’t know how that feels and more importantly it’s not a real thing. Anymore than someone thinking they are are a cat. As far as customer service the more technology advances human customer service has gotten worse or just disappeared.
I'm not sure which is worse: interacting with a chat bot, or interacting with someone in a foreign country who lives in a different culture and can barely speak my language.
It's gotten to the point that I immediately hang up and try again if somebody with a thick accent that I can barely understand answers the phone.
You are right - the empathy is selective. There is concern for blacks but not whites, for women but not men, etc.
Heh.
About cognitive empathy... some folks say psychopaths have cognitive empathy when they sense their target's fear or hurt etc. I say it's just predatory attunement that has no business calling itself empathy. The retort is, but that is just them weaponizing empathy. Hm. Any thoughts, anyone?
I think the last five years have broken people's brains, especially if they got the jab. Things were already bad before that because so many people are on multiple prescription drugs, but it really does seem worse now after the shots and boosters.
It's amazing you just mentioned this, because just today, my friend sent me this link showing a link between the Covid vaccine and a spike in mental illness. Just read under "Abstract." https://ijirms.in/index.php/ijirms/article/view/2090?s=03
Yep, but now AI is their substitute thinking mechanism.
Emotional projection is not empathy.
Be specific and direct. Who are you saying is projecting? (engage your cognitive empathy please)
That was a general statement. Much of what is promoted as empathy is not.
For example, the woke Westerner's notion of the Gazan mindset is about as far outside reality as can be. She envisions a poor, oppressed "minority" who shares her own woke "principles", and she demands that policy regard Gazans accordingly.
The actual Gazan would want her executed for her LGBTQ practice, among other things, and doesn't remotely fit her caricature. She has no genuine empathy for him because she doesn't understand him, and she doesn't want to.
Absolutely. You nailed it.
JD, thank you for your empathy, I needed it, you helped Josh provide it, and I received it without any out of pocket expense at the moment - there might be hell to pay for my roughly 15 minutes of quiet reading of substacks cuz I'm supposed to walk my daughter's dog, but reading this substack and your comment about people with "Gazan mindsets" - which I loved - making me feel lighter on my feet, therefore giving me a better fast paced walk, good for both my AND the doggie's health - and making it easier to handle the very, very upperclass California seaside town that is packed to the brim with quaint 1,200 sq ft Victorian-or-various-other- style homes that are next to huge raucous 30,000 sq ft mega mansions all squeezed inside a few square miles of small town with its very own police force and station house, a fire department, 2 libraries, 2 large performance theaters as well as two 49 seats or less theaters, and one outdoor theater that is Hollywood-bowl-style-but-more-intimate-200-seats, AND a former 1930's movie theater since converted to an outdoor mall area with a Tiffany's jewelry, and well over 40 restaurants, all of this surrounded by blocks and blocks - and blocks - of homes with lawn signs very prominently displayed, packed with virtue signaling insanity, including one sign on the lawn of a 25 million dollar mansion accompanied by ocean sounds drifting in on the gentle breeze escorting wisps of sea mist, last night lit by a beautiful gibbous moon -- the lawn sign beseeching "Defund the Police", and I'm not 100% positive this is a good idea, I need to mull it over, after I stop by their house to see if the door's unlocked, in which case I can make a sandwich with whatever's in that fridge of theirs, and also I'm out of baggies so I'll let the dog do his blasting of shit, also piss, but he's focused on the shit right now, I can tell. I'll leave them a note telling them they sell carpet cleaner at the local Ralph's, my note will say I think it's in aisle 13, or 14, maybe 15, who knows, and also I'm gonna borrow one of their lamps, maybe two, for a few weeks to read great sub-stacks like Josh Slocum's, as well as great comments like yours, and I might forget to return that lamp, ever, but I have huge amounts of empathy for the homeowners, one time (true story) my wife had a home intruder who had followed her around her college campus for over a week without her knowing, then late one night he climbed in through her 3rd floor terrace window to rape and kill her with the big knife in his hand, but when he told her to roll over face down on her bed, she knew this would be the end of her life, so he told the psycho she knew he was going to rape her but she's about to piss the bed so will he let her use the bathroom, which he agreed to, and she ran inside and slammed the door and began screaming out the window "police! Help!", and he ran. Then the police arrived in force and took his description, and luckily had dropped his knife. A few weeks later he tried raping another woman using the same routine and actions and weapon, and she literally blew his head off with a shotgun. His prints on his knife that the police were able to get matched the prints on my wife's knife - that the police were able to get and the perp had borrowed for a few minutes - as the police surmised cuz police often have much much more experience in this sort of crime stopping stuff, the police do, and police are often funded for that reason, same with the phone number "911", and anyone can call it, unlike the private security guards that sit in huts in front of massive private security gates often surrounding very high end developments that only very rich people can afford... and I'm thinking one day when I see a lawn sign I'm going to knock on their door and tell them "Thank you for your service". BUT... maybe I won't cuz they might think I'm even close to serious.
JD Free, you substituted another caricature for hers. I have no idea which one is accurate, although I lean towards yours.
In the political realm, for my own sanity, I refuse to endorse the feelings (not empathy) of someone regarding something of which I have little to no understanding. Like other commenters, I believe this nonsense really took off in 1992. In the first presidential debate, G.W. Bush was prepared to talk about his lack of “the vision thing,” but when Clinton started claiming to “feel your pain,” Bush looked around to no one in particular with a puzzled look on his face as if he was in the wrong TV studio.
Paging Mister Rogers!
I did indeed substitute one caricature for another, though we have the word of countless interviewed Gazans that mine is correct. Regardless, I do not profess to "empathize" with any of these people, nor do I expect my words to be given special weight or credit because of "empathy". I do not call myself a superior person because of "empathy".
That's what's important here.
You really touched on a few things in my wheelhouse. I agree that cognitive empathy has a sacrificial, selfless nature, juxtaposed with the hollow moral high ground of virtue signaling through the empty declaration of possessing emotional, or affective empathy.
The tough part is dealing with those that don’t communicate in sacrificial terms. They don’t think of the other person. Often it’s because they were never taught to. I’ve found that even the most fundamental attributes we think others “should know” still must often be taught, based on the heritable facets of personality.
Lastly, I agree that often someone says they have empathy, but usually they don’t. But even if they do, it’s not a good thing. Almost never. Occasionally it is good. But rare. Very rare. I listed why here: https://open.substack.com/pub/tidbitsofaudacity/p/does-empathy-equal-morality?r=h20p2&utm_medium=ios
I had a “Josh-like-public-interaction” with a Gen Z girl at the local botanical garden’s bistro Sunday. As we approached, the hostess at the booth up front she didn’t even look up at my husband and I. She was dripping with annoyance as she continued not to look up at us while informing about the 45 minute wait, to which we cheerfully agreed. She didn’t look at us while taking my phone number. The whole interaction happened with zero eye contact, and an openly hostile attitude. And I know she was capable of smiling because the minute we walked away she was laughing and joking with co-workers.
This is the kind of thing that makes people dread any type of unfamiliar interaction - via phone or otherwise. Just a general hatred for your fellow humans.
I am incredibly hard of hearing even with hearing aids. I constantly have to ask people to look at me when they speak so I can see their lips. Nobody is used to doing that anymore.
Josh I think you’d really enjoy Joe Rigney’s book “The Sin of Empathy “ . He also recently did a fantastic (IMO) interview (titled the same) on Becket Cook’s YouTube channel, made some great points on the topic.
This happens to me constantly, as well--the blank stare that says, 'I don't understand what you're asking, I do not know what to do about it, and I'm scared.' The slow breakdown of society as seen one interaction at a time.
I'm an X'r as well and it seems like this started about 10 years or so ago (smartphones/social media) and has gotten exponentially worse since Covid. No one under 45 knows how to think on their feet, outside of a script.
I have had so many of these communications over the past few months- and I live in a place that is still somewhat normal. This goes far past a reasonable expectation for customers to be courteous in busy or bustling situations. At first I thought it was a problem with employee training but it seems to be a problem across businesses, medical offices, government services, etc. No one takes ownership of even basic questions but they very much want you to understand how they feel about what's taking place at their job. Everything feels like a chore now. I find myself procrastinating for even basic calls to double check things like a dentist appointment because there is no telling how much/little the person on the other end of the line will know.
I remember this nonsense starting with Bill 'I feel your pain' Clinton. Back then I said, 'No I feel my pain, you're trying to distract me'.
What helped me, years ago in the workplace, was when I had to ask a manager for her help but was stressed and intimidated. 'Help me help you' was the perfect response, I was able to tell her what I needed her to provide.
So, what I think, as someone who's had to adapt to my own poor attention span and memory in order to earn a living -
As both a customer and a service person, I've simply had to always write everything down to make sure I get the accurate facts and details straight. So I have to stop and ask the other person for their details, repeat back to confirm, and make myself a reminder how and when to follow up. If I can't help or have any more info, I say so. But I don't assume anything.
Right. But none of those techniques work with people *who will not accept them, and will not respond back in kind*.
I am so organized. I keep lists. I'm clear. It doesn't matter when others won't cooperate.
It’s difficult when they see customers as interrupting what they want to be doing. The message, “ the customer isn’t interrupting your day; they are the reason you are hear,” has been preached at customer service folk for decades. It’s probably worse now because of smart phones.
I’m begging this guy in the most deferential, soft, meek voice. I’m larding it with “I hear you, man you must be busy. I appreciate you.” He won’t fucking answer my question.
I’m going to scream.
And you’re justified. You might be interrupting him watching a YouTube video, which he finds more interesting than doing his job.
Did the guy ever call you back? I've come to realize that when some employee of any company tells me he's going to call me back, there's about a 10 percent chance it's going to happen. I don't know if they're lying when they tell me they're going to call, or if they're just so incompetent and uninterested they don't make any effort to remember. Also, there's a phenomenon that almost always happens: when, after waiting hours or days past the time the employee promised to call, I can't take the stress anymore and I call him, he always says "oh, I was just about to pick up the phone to call you."
Nope. I called back right now. He's still ranting at me that I'm 12th in queue. I tried so hard. I said "I know how busy you are, I feel for you. Friend, I'm not yelling at you. I'm only trying to ask if you've ordered it. I appreciate you and I'm not trying to jump in line but respectfully you won't answer my question. What can I do differently?"
"I'll call you when I have an answer."
WHY? What is WRONG here?
This kid's manager needs to know his shitty behavior. And he needs to be fired.
You believe that managers care about this? I’m sorry to say that they don’t. That’s not real anymore. This IS the culture of business now. The “managers” are young people, too.
It's a bad idea for someone from a business to say they will call you back. For me, it induces anxiety. It means I have to keep my phone with me constantly for an indefinite time. Will they call back within the hour? Today? Tomorrow? Ever? Can I take a shower or leave the house without missing this one-time call? Can I use the phone at all? (I've had calls from friends go directly to voice mail without the phone ringing while I'm holding it in my hand.) Since the business may have multiple phone lines there's no guarantee that the number they call from will be the number you called. They could call from a personal phone. There may not be any recognizable caller ID, and since I get many spam calls I usually ignore any calls that aren't from my contacts. I would rather stay on hold for an hour or call back later myself than accept a "call back" option.
Yep, the anxiety level is always high, and then they usually never call back, anyway.
As usual, you excel at giving language to something I've noticed but haven't found language to express.
This has turned up quite often in my own life with regard to mathematics. Because so many people have some kind of trauma from a shitty math teacher and mathematics is culturally coded to be almost synonymous with intelligence (i.e. if you're not great at it, you're not very smart, and vice versa, both of which are bullshit) there are a lot of minefields here. If I need to talk math with someone and I pitch it above their level, I risk insulting them or, worse, not communicating at all -- because they may hesitate to admit they don't understand. But if I pitch it below their level, I risk insulting them from the other end -- "this bitch thinks I'm dumb, doesn't she?" So I've settled on a short disclaimer. "Listen, anytime I talk math I tend to geek out and I can often miss if I'm losing my conversational partners, so please, please interrupt me if I'm going too fast or too slow. I don't want to waste your time covering ground you're familiar with but I also don't want to skip any interim steps, and I'm highly likely to do both in the same conversation."
This frequently results in laughter and an assurance that they're so bad at math that they can barely make change, but the rest of the time it results in some kind of frustration, as if they're annoyed that I thought about what they might be thinking.
And yet, I cannot bring myself to NOT think about what they're thinking -- not when it matters. Which makes me wonder just how much of common sense is really common.
Because this seems like common sense to me.
Holly, if you had delivered that disclaimer to me, I think I would have fallen in love. It's awesome. Don't ever change.
I think your side of the interaction seems perfectly reasonable.