There’s parents trying to figure it out and be the right blend of so many things but get some parts wrong and then there’s parents that take their frustrations or perversions out on their children. Or those trying to win a popularity contest with their children
As a parent who's now a grandmother I agree with what you said but I also disagree with it. I think there's a huge move right now from adult children especially those just becoming parents to think they know everything and I know that from watching it but from also being one of those adult parents. I really remember thinking I knew everything and I didn't, boy I didn't! I think that there's a combination of both and I think there are an awful lot of young adults now who do look to blame their parents for a lot of things and I agree parents hold responsibility for some of the problems their children. Growing up isn't a simple thing. Society have has an outsized influence because of the change in the way families live and the utter lack of community. I wouldn't have considered myself a feminist but I bought all the feminist crap for many years and it wasn't till I was in my late 40s that I started to seriously examine most of the things that I thought were fact so I can see it both ways. I certainly don't think it's one way or the other for sure and I don't see that we're being very fair to parents either. There are no rules norms anymore and that is very difficult when you're trying to figure out where you fit in as an adult and without them it's a free-for-all and I think that that makes it really hard for my generation and the new one to figure out what they're supposed to do and so mistakes get made. These mistakes often have a negative effect on children unfortunately but I do not think demonizing parents fixes it because there is a definite lack of personal accountability in these last couple generations.
I’m glad you wrote this. You’re among several people who’ve recently said similar to me. It seems likely there is something different going on today in 2025, something beyond the normal “I can’t stand my parents” that comes and goes with age.
The outsized influence of society that you pointed to, I suspect that’s bigger than we know, and probably bigger than I know.
Society rewards family destruction like never before. Victimhood is prized like never before. Parents are not allowed to have imperfections and adult children are “stunning and brave” for cutting the family loose, denying their own children an extended family relationship. Every disagreement isn’t abuse. Ideological purity has replaced normal discourse. The people dismissing their parents now, will find themselves in the same position one day, because their children will grow up without knowing how to resolve differences. The world would be a better place if everyone would take responsibility for their own shit and stop whining.
Josh, I have a question, please enlighten me. First of all, I’m totally on board with what you are saying. I know this is a sensitive topic for you.
When I grew up it was known as discipline and now it’s abuse. That’s how current society refers to this situation. We are in a lawless society, therefore any punishment a parent may use to a child is considered over excessive, unwarranted or unnecessary. Then we end up with the spoiled brats you speak of, never held accountable for their actions. But yet, yes absolutely, there are parents who indeed truly abuse their kids.
Now the question. To you as a counsellor. How does a parent discipline in today’s culture ? What constitutes true abuse ? When do the abuse cries become a calling wolf situation ? How is a kid ever going to learn if they’re always coddled ?
I’m not a parent. I’m just a guy trying to understand where the line is or should be drawn.
I never hit my kids or even did a time out which was a big thing in the 90s
Logical consequences and always always following through unless certain circumstances you don’t want to be a Gestapo about it, but you should always do what you say
Logical
For instance, your son is bumping the ball in the house. You say to him if you keep bouncing it inside the house I’ll take that for today. If he doesn’t listen, go right up to him and say listen. I am gonna take it if you do it even one more time and then take it if he does it. He’s doing something wrong with the ball so it’s logical to take it.
If you and your family are making pudding. Three kids one of them is double dipping and you don’t like it say do it one more time and you are out, do what you say
Another important thing is preparation Tell them what to expect before hand. OK, we are each going to take turns and if someone jumps in they lose a turn in that rotation of stirring the pudding. Then, if someone tries to jump in on someone else, they lose a turn. They do it again and they have to find another activity.
You don’t have to get angry. It doesn’t have to be a punishment. It’s a logical consequence you tell them before hand. I don’t want you spreading germs, for instance, so what can we do and if they say well, we shouldn’t double dip then they are 10 times more likely to remember not to do it
You could also have a helper
So many incidences Make sure you’re in a car all the kids have a lot to do. Whatever special activity they have to leave five minutes if they fight or worse, if you think the fight is worse, etc., but it should always be a logical consequence
Hitting is never a logical consequence it doesn’t make the brain think the kid usually just feels bad for himself and he also thinks he is bad. He’s mad at the parents himself when it all could’ve been avoided in a lot of ways.
This may be a little too simplistic and maybe too old (the 60’s) as things have changed 50 times between then and now. The was a Dick Van Dyke episode where son Richie was learning new words as a 6 (or whatever) year old. And as ever kid would have done then, some weren’t the nicest (although we never know what) the whole story was around what was the right way to deal with the situation. Mom wanted to ignore it. Dad wanted to “discuss it” and take the “don’t you say that again” approach. The interesting thing about it was, whenever someone found out what the words were, the response was “…dad did xxx….and a rap in the mouth”. Or “aunt Esther would sit us down and lecture…oh, and a rap in the mouth”. Even the preacher came to the house and finished up the conclusion that “…dad would give us a rap in the mouth” The threat was the fear it would happen, not that it necessarily would. It was a deterrent. And it was. I got whacked a few times. Nothing that would put me in the hospital, but enough to get the message across and the idea I didn’t want to have it happen again. I saw my brother taken to task, I wasn’t going to have that happen to me - so I stayed out of trouble.
But that was 1965 and not 2025. Things began to change in the late ‘60s with all the war protests, and the “I’m not going to do that, I don’t have to do that” attitudes. But these were more-so adults than “kids”. But the mind set changed and those would become parents passing on those attitudes. My point I guess is that there are no real deterrants right now, so little Johnny feels entitled to do what ever he pleases…and then it extends into adulthood.
Long and short, the “it” would be a spanking, a bar of soap in the mouth or “a rap in the mouth”. As time progressed, “time outs” or “standing in the corner” became the go to. Then it was an acceptable form of discipline, designed to provide a consequence to control a potential unacceptable behavior. That does not seem to exist right now, good or bad. You can hope a talking to, a discussion or taking a ball or tablet away would work. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. But there is a definite lack of something right now. I think Josh said it right when he stated “cruel to be kind, in the right measure”.
I have controlled 20 and 30 children at once in the inner cities without ever hitting them.
What it is is feminine mothers at home that we are lacking and masculine fathers that children could actually look up to.
Mothers are working all day and then tired too tired to make good nutrition and then expect the kids to do well. Give me a break the kids and sugar all day then most do not exercise. That is a recipe for diabetes.
They see the father always henpecked. Anytime they see anything on TV or in the media. He is the loser.
And you think the kids are going to respect him ?!
People let their teenagers run wild you have to make sure they are doing something every minute and they have to be accomplishing something or they will be completely bored and vandalizing the school. If you get them on the right track and you inspire them for greatness, then you don’t have to babysit them every minute, but you have to be a good model.
Did you see what a witch she was to her father ?!?!
I’m serious. It was outrageous.
People take their daughter to see this and then wonder why she’s some kind of ho/cretin. Seriously if you see this movie, she is disgusting to her father, but we are so used to seeing this that we don’t see it. Do we?
Not enough of us do that’s for damn sure but maybe people are waking up
I don't think it is too simplistic. I have looked back to plenty of tv for inspiration (Little House on the Prairie, Road to Avonlea, the Cosby Show, etc.) and while I know things are deliberately crafted to have a good ending in a tv show- I still find them encouraging.
I think it is interesting that even back in the 60s adults were referencing a "rap in the mouth" as a form of "the good old days." People tend to look back on the times when parents were more physically rough with kids as a better time but I think it is safe to say that, 70 years later, that was clearly not good parenting. Each generation has gotten noticeably worse- not better- as a result of trying to resolve all the personal problems that came from parents' use of physical punishment.
I think one negative shift that no one noticed at the time was an almost universal dropping of the word "punishment" and replacing it with "discipline." But the actions of the parents didn't change. They still reacted to their kids however they saw fit- whether it actually imparted any understanding of discipline at all. A spanking or bar of soap in the mouth is punishment. It doesn't give the child a chance to fix a mistake, it doesn't matter if you reflect at all- you are still hurt. Nothing about those things teach discipline. Just avoidance. Maybe sometimes it teaches avoidance of a negative behavior. But more often than not it teaches avoidance of responsibility, avoidance of parents, etc. Punishment is something that should happen after all other attempts to teach or have something repaired are exhausted. It shouldn't be the default way of teaching a child (especially a very small, young child) what is and is not acceptable or moral behavior. I have wondered if people had continued to use the word punishment in relationship to all the things that they did that were actually punishments, if it would have resulted in a greater cultural understanding of how much adults were just reacting to and punishing children and not actually teaching them any form of discipline whatsoever. We clearly see that almost no discipline has been taught whatsoever for the past 70 years but we don't have all the answers as to why. But I do blame the softening of "punishment" to "discipline" with no understanding or accountability for what those two words actually mean for a portion of the problem.
I have also noticed that parenting has completely ceased to be something that is done for the benefit of children and our civilization. Because it is the most rewarding and fulfilling thing you will ever do in life, people have decided (across right/left, Christian/atheist, etc.) that parenting is supposed to be designed around what is most personally fulfilling for you, the adult, at the time it is happening. So parenting is now just a personal choice- like everything else. You will find very few parents who will acknowledge that there are some right and wrong ways to parent that should be fairly universal. Everyone wants to parent only in ways that "feel right for their family" which means there are no more norms for family life. That is the lack that you are noticing. We are not going to get that back for a long time- if ever because there is no group (no matter how you divide people up) who is going to be willing to give up their unique parenting style. And because everyone wants parenting to remain as specific and unique as every individual- no one will to hold bad or abusive parents accountable. Grown children are left to navigate the fall-out in a world where no one will admit that there should be standards for how children are treated and raised.
What about this ? Do you think, without referring to a specific following, that the reduced dedication or influence of religion (in general) has an effect on how parents parent. In other words, is there no longer a moral guidance involved ? Have the religions become too political themselves ? Or does that not play into any of this at all.
My son has his own son now and he mentioned that he was surprised that other young parents he knew had no framework or plan for how they wanted to raise their children - whereas he and his wife were consciously thinking about what they had to do to raise a child with a strong sense of morality. In my experience about 75.% - 80% of parents no longer care to instill or even discuss moral guidance. Postmodern moral relativism abounds. I also think too many parents don’t have the fortitude or discipline to model “moral” behaviors so they make excuses like - I can’t tell them to do and act in ways I don’t follow. Instead of realizing the truth in that statement they assert they aren’t hurting anyone and carry on letting the kids follow. I think religion is making a comeback - but reading philosophy - and having a sense duty to those around you and taking pride in your responsibilities are strong substitutes. Too many adults and children run from commitment and responsibility instead of conceptualizing duty and obligation as noble virtues. I think society would benefit from parenting that focused on raising sons to be honorable husbands and fathers and daughters who recognized the importance of tenderness and the strength of purpose it requires to raise the next generation.
I think most major American religious groups (granted Christianity is the one I am most familiar with) are guilty as well. They, as a whole, also embrace the late 20th century (the 70s on) problem of defining, understanding, and acting ONLY in merely personal terms. They might be correct in pointing out cultural problems that can be laid at the feet of leftists but they do not accept criticisms of their own highly subjective and personal treatment of long-standing traditions and knowledge. They are quick to re-interpret or redefine scripture to fit what they want. If schools, libraries, etc. begin to falter or fail- they just ditch the whole thing and move and do their own thing. Then they wail 15-20 years later when every cultural institution is falling down around them as if they had not been neglecting and deserting them the entirety of that time for the sake of their own personal problems and beliefs.
I don’t know how we come back from this. I think our best chance (and we may have one with whatever generation is currently teenagers and early 20s now) is to push people, not to abandon their God-given individuality, but to learn how it has to integrate into families, homes, churches, communities (schools, libraries, local charities, etc.), larger democratic practices, etc. with tremendous respect for all those institutions have given people. Very young people seem to be interested in why these things were important for thousands of years and seem to be willing to think twice before throwing them out. They seem to be more receptive to the idea that the whole of society does not exist to worship at the alter of you individually.
I know that is a little off the subject of punishment and discipline but I think if we orient ourselves towards the larger goal first, we will have a better chance of sorting out the small things intuitively.
I had a few simple (and humorous) statements I would use on my son - my job is to get your sperm in the best uterus available to ensure these genes continue on....and the woman owning that uterus is gonna be picky - so you better up your game right now; self-esteem begins with self ... so don't tell me I hurt your self-esteem - listen to what I'm saying - get your ass in your room and figure out what you need to do to be proud of yourself; I don't own your success but I also don't own your failure; you're supposed to fail - so don't be ashamed - it's how you learn - and it's better to fail young when the consequences are less dire and I'm here to help you right the ship; they say a child will succeed if there is one person in their life that truly loves and believes in them - I am that person and I believe in you. He turned out quite well :-)
Ok - everyone’s entitled to their opinion - but nothing wrong with a little white trash now and then. However, I am not a receptacle for your hostile and bellicose projections so perhaps you should consider the advantages of shutting your pie hole. I stand by my parenting and the words I chose to convey my sentiments to my son. Kindly and respectfully - go fuck your self.
Ha ha. And hopefully in addition to continuing the genes- just being able to build a happy life with someone who is sweet and loves him as much as he loves her.
I think it is good to give kids that kind of inspiration. Especially dads to sons. If a young man knows he has good, solid reasons to be proud (not vain) of the skills he has built and the character he has formed he will not be afraid to go out and make a family with someone who both honors those qualities and has them herself. That is the real adventure. Not self-gratifying hedonism. I think guys need to feel that being worthy of and "winning" a good woman* and having a family of their own is a crucial of the adventure of the myth/fairy tale.
That is one of the reasons parents have to be tough sometimes. We are raising someone else's husband or wife and father or mother. It's not just about us.
*Quick disclaimer: I do not believe women are LITERALLY property.
It seemed to me that he was saying if you cannot hit your kids what should you do?
And I am saying preparation, preparation, preparation. Have back packs filled with stuff even snacks always ready. Rotate the toys. Bring it anywhere outside. You don’t have to discipline children who are busy.
Prepare the rules ahead of time with the children if you are going to the doctors or anywhere. Say to them. “what is the safest and most fun way we can get through this food shopping together?”
You’d be surprised, the excellent ideas they would have. Give them jobs to do. Give them parts of list although I would be very careful about sending children into another aisle alone. It could be that very aisle you are on, but just the other side. Get them in the helping feeling. Give them a reward if everybody cooperates. If they don’t, they’re not part of the reward.
You should always follow what you say but if there are several logical but negative consequences that follow together it should be that a child is asked if he or she is sick or has a problem, etc. because you never know about that either You cannot be rigid
There is a difference between discipline and abuse, but as a society we’re having a hell of a time delineating it. I think this is another one of those situations where what Ken means by abuse may not be what Josh means by abuse may not be what Mary means abuse, etc. We’d all do well to get more specific with each other—words have been redefined under our nose. Seems like all the time to me.
I can only say what I think (and my mind can be changed with a good argument).
I recognize that discipline is now called “abuse” by too many people. Were I a parent, I’d practice strict boundaries, responsibilities, consequences for breaking them, but also understanding about being a growing up human.
Modern permissive parenting leads to insecure, unstable, spoiled, and unpleasant adult personalities. We’ve gone way too permissive.
I see the following things as abuse—lying to children (except necessary white lies, and these are tough), putting your adult responsibilities on them instead of the other way around, gaslighting them, treating them inconsistently all the time and changing the rules on the fly, mocking them for their genuine emotional states instead of helping them integrate those emotions. Obviously, beatings and sexual stuff are abuse, but as you know, I’m keyed in on the interpersonal and emotional abuse.
I think a good parent has to be “cruel to be kind, in the right measure” sometimes. A firm “no” to a child who says he’s the opposite sex, for example, would be called “cruel” today. I think it’s the most loving, grounding thing a parent could do. They need more than just that, of course.
I don’t know if I’ve answered your question Ken, but it’s a necessary conversation. We all should be having it more often.
I think you have. Not just answered but backed it up with good examples and explanations. I think it boils down to the excessive permissiveness that creates the problems. And I think that permissiveness comes from the “woke” mindset and the “cancel culture” that evolved from it. The only thing you didn’t touch on was, when does a situation become a crying wolf, or does it ever ?
Also, whether you are a white or Asian male doesn’t matter, but one thing is obvious you should not send your kids to school to learn to hate you because they’ve learned that these males are oppressors.
Too bad if the word for slave came from the word, Slavic because whites were Arab slaves for over 1000 years. We don’t talk about that at all so why do we just blame White males for everything? Take away scholarships from Asian males? The school system demonizes who they please.
Do you mean like the boy who cried wolf or a cry for help?
A cry for help I think and a great question. You can look up the fable of the boy who cried wolf if you never heard of it. Now crying for help means that the kid is doing things to get attention. Yes, I would always try to seek a council even though you have to be careful that they don’t blame you. There are many factors and I think the parents are strong factors but even the SSH grouping like alpha beta Delta gamma, and Omega. People do have natural tendencies of leadership or following others and some people have a kind of smart ass . It’s called a gamma.
You should look this up
If you have a son for instance, and you think he is a gamma you really do have to do things a certain way, which is pretty much not let him get away with anything at all or he will push you to death.
So if you put “SSH gamma” you should get a description. It’s the social hierarchy that every creature has on earth. Wolves have it, beesIf you think that’s your kid, you should find out more.
If you think he is crying out for help, you should talk to a counselor just in case
Oh the boy who cried Wolf! If you want to you can PM me a specific situation That could be about a family friend or somebody that you know at work, etc.
The "gentle parenting" thing is creating monsters.
"We use GENTLE WORDS when we speak to each other, Tragedeigh."
"Ayydenn, can you tell me how you think Magnum might feel when you won't share the toy? How could we help make him feel better?"
"Please stop hitting mommy, Q'uin. It hurts when you hit mommy."
*10 seconds later*
"OK, Q'uin, Mommy is asking you not to hit her again. If you keep hitting, we'll have to stop playing together and do a big, long hug inside the heavy blanket. OK? OK?..."
Discipline is where you set up logical rules and expectations and then follow through, like what Sharon R. Fiore was saying upthread. It's about teaching your kids how to function -- how to get a handle on their emotions, how to interact properly, how to be a productive member of society.
Abuse is motivated by the parent's pathology. In our house, the primary unspoken rule was "don't piss off dad." He regularly exploded at us, and we never knew whether doing something today was going get us punished or whether he'd not even notice.
A parent calmly delivering a paddling after a kid breaks a rule -- which had as its stated penalty a paddling -- is much different from a parent unleashing his wrath on a kid's backside because he got triggered by dumb kid behavior.
Likewise, a parent calmly (or with some frustration) sending a kid into timeout as part of an established procedure is not the same as an enraged parent arbitrarily shouting the kid into another room where she's terrified of coming out for several hours.
Wrath, malice, sadism, indifference, manipulation, prevarication -- exposing children to these wicked states of mind is where the abuse comes in. A normie parent who loses her cool sometimes but who calms down and apologizes to the kids is not abusive. A parent who enjoys provoking her children to tears definitely is.
Kids can sense ill intent in their parents. They know when the parent is enforcing a rule vs a parent who is just being mean.
Josh, you hit the nail on the head. Kids need to know parents have boundaries to keep them safe - if not, they don't feel secure enough to explore. Kids also need boundaries because rebelling is necessary for growing up. I see kids acting out or wanting to identify as a different sex or an animal and I think...those poor kids had no other boundaries to push because their parents decided it was more rewarding (and easier) to be their friend. Conversely, it's abusive not to allow your kid some measure of independence and responsibility - some opportunity to fail (or succeed) because independence/responsibility is what separates kids from adults. I see teenagers allowed to have boyfriends sleep over - come home at all hours - decide they want to attend on-line high school - but they can't figure out how to get a job or cook a meal. If you allow your kids to enjoy the benefits of being an adult without the responsibility - what will motivate them to grow up and assume responsibility?
Screens are not good. Toys, coloring, books, books, stickies, stickers, pens, pencils, mechanical pens, pencil sharpener, crayons, paper, crossword puzzles, little scissors, with a bag to hold any little pieces because they should not be on the Dentist office floor. Glue stick. Markers. All those things I mentioned are much more important than any choice they could have especially electronic toy
When you think about it, it’s kind of unfair to just suddenly say come on kids let’s go !!!
If they can be prepared a little, it’s great
One of my college teachers literally had us doing a craft and then suddenly stopping us, and we realized how much we represented him stopping our conversation without warning us and we didn’t wanna do it to the kids anymore. We learned a craft for the kids that day and a valuable lesson about how they probably just want to be treated like the way we want to be treated. The golden rule is helpful as well.
Ken, I think it's a great question and one that children of cluster B parents often struggle with (at least I do). I think of it like this...discipline is done for the child and should result in something positive at some point in time (increased self-control, delayed gratification, appropriate conduct, instilled morals). Abuse is done for the sake of the parent and isn't aimed at helping the child learn beneficial life lessons. It's a fine line but at its core I think it involves the motivations of the parents. Today, folks accuse parents of abuse (harming self-esteem) if they punish a child for getting bad grades - or tell them to put on a more appropriate outfit - while they praise parents who hover over and infantilize their children. So, we are dealing with a couple of confounding variables - a) it's hard to determine someone's motivations, and b) we live in a very self-centered, shallow and amoral culture that rewards the parents as friend model (a model I seriously disagree with). As I look back on my childhood and try to tease these issues apart I often tick through a series of questions....did the actions of my parents help me establish a sense of agency and self-sufficiency? Did I trust my parents judgement? Did I feel that their actions were logical and predictable and did they help me understand what actions I should engage in or avoid in the future? Let's also keep in mind that abuse is not always overt - sometimes it's the things that are not done and said that are problematic. When my shrink suggested I was emotionally and psychologically abused by my mother (diagnosed borderline) I told him I thought that description was exaggerated - he countered by saying that was a textbook response (point being - it often takes a long time to acknowledge that what you endured was abuse). It's a struggle to accept - and equally as difficult to know how to balance the dependency we have on our parents - the love we still feel for them - the good aspects that are there - with the cruel and abusive parts. Part of the discipline vs abuse tension lives inside most abused children...so when I see kids these days proudly asserting how they went no contact with parents it makes me think...an abused child would have a much more difficult time accepting the term "abusive parents" let alone cutting off a parent. When a child is abused it seems to instill a sense of profound guilt - a feeling that this person needs you and it would be selfish to walk away - a sense of doubt about your own perception of the situation. I don't know if that helps - I just know that abused children/adults also struggle with the question you raised.
It has always seemed to me that adults who were abused as kids take time and need space to talk about their experiences… the rest are just wanting to be victims. Curious to see if you agree. Thanks Josh
I sometimes fantasize about how things might have been different if my mother had simply said to me, as an adult, "I'm sorry for some of the things I did that I know hurt you kids. I wish I could have done better." But no. Trying to get my mother to take responsibility for her mistakes and horrific abuse was as frustrating as trying to nail jello to a tree. So often, when I tried to talk to her about our childhood, she'd quickly cut me off and counter with, "you think YOU KIDS had it bad, you should have seen my childhood." I call that the "you can't complain about having one arm when I have no arms" defense. I can still vividly recall how astonished I felt when I was trying to explain to her how horrifically traumatic it was for us 3 little kids to see my mother physically attacking my father. She said, "if I had known how bad it was for you to witness that, I wouldn't have done it." How can you not know that it's bad for kids to see their mother beating their father?? She lost all credibility and we were estranged on and off through adulthood. I did not shed a single tear when she died.
It's true - the linguistic pendulum has swung so hard, it's crashed into the other side and left a giant hole in the drywall. Because when *everything* is "abusive narcissism," or "toxicity," then *nothing* is. The words have been robbed of their correct meaning - plz. see also "sexism," "racism," and "homophobia."
It seems to be in fashion for many adult children to accuse their parents of being toxic or narcissistic especially white middle or upper class kids. That might be because our culture encourages victimhood and they can't claim race or financial deprivation? But that's only a certain segment. Unfortunately though I think most people who say they were abused are right. Perhaps the outright beatings aren't as prevalent as they used be but it still exists, and even more so abuse by neglect and mental cruelty. My daughter had a gig as a substitute teacher and was shocked that at least half the kids in her class were ignored by their parents or guardians, have witnessed or been on the receiving end of completely irrational, uncontrolled behavior and have been subjected to having to see vicious and violent fights between their parents or guardians, forcing them to listen to adult subject matter no kid should have to be aware of. These children are suffering from emotional deprivation. What discipline they recieve is doled out in moments of anger or frustration, causing it to be ineffective and out of line with the infraction.
In my experience, there can be a context and history resulting in poor parenting.
Both of my parents were Jewish, born and raised in the Depression / WWII era to parents who were 1st generation Americans and preoccupied with survival and obedience. There was also a long history of abuse by the men on Dad's side. So, life was harsh & unfair in Eastern Europe. So was the parenting once in America.
What was different about my own upbringing was that my cousins (both sides) and classmates (in strictly religious schools) somehow were better adjusted, behaved, and in general more joyful than my brother and I, and I knew as a child that my family was not like other families.
Here is how:
My parents were the 'black sheep' of their families (either abused or overlooked) and were less trusting and willing to accept family or outside help parenting as adults. They were isolated from family and slow to befriend strangers. There was no yelling or histrionics, just silent treatment and withdrawal, so one had to guess at the issue. Punishment was inconsistent and not related to an immediate behavior. There was no preparation or guidance for what and when to do or stop doing something. There was no mention of forgiveness or apology.
My parents were deeply damaged but functional and provided food / clothing / shelter / education to the best of their ability. My brother and I are also damaged, and have not had kids. We've both done our best to forgive (admittedly, my brother is better at this) partly because in later years their damage was increasingly apparent.
I'm bringing these painful factors up because some of today's parenting problems may have deep roots, and may also be present in the immigrant / wartime cultures arriving now.
Please think carefully before becoming a parent!!! - Thank you
I know it can't be done, but I've often thought that there should be a licensing requirement to become a parent. The cavalier attitude of so many toward that major life decision is abhorrent. I'm talking about unintended pregnancy, too, which 99 times out of 100 could have been prevented if there was any emphasis on the moral and ethical aspects of childrearing. Instead, many people give little forethought to the consequences of premarital, and even marital sex. It's an afterthought, for which abortion now is commonly used to eradicate the consequence.
The decision to bring a child into the word may be the most important and consequential decision most of us will ever make. To treat it without gravitas and respect, with a thorough understanding of what the responsibilities are to being a responsible and good parent is unforgivable.
You are right on the target again here, Josh. I have known great parents with an abusive child who certainly wasn't raised that way, and horrible parents with kids that were more responsible than the parents and turned out very well. Having read the other comments, I agree that consistent clear boundaries for behavior, with proportionate consequences for breaking the rules, probably is the best type of parenting style, but some parents just can't do this for whatever reasons, and some kids just won't stay in the boundaries no matter what the consequences.
Also, sometimes parent and child personalities are so different that they can't understand each other and some kind of discord is the result. In my own family, my parents were both good people but had their own problems and when I was a teenager they had no emotional resources to deal with me. As I grew up I developed into a person so different from my parents that we didn't have much in common so we moved apart. I didn't hate them but they just weren't a part of my life. I tried to parent my stepdaughter differently and it worked, I remain close to her and her family.
Excellent piece that provides an expansion beyond the good/bad parent frame. Good parenting = no childhood trauma and bad parenting = childhood trauma. This piece captures the reality that good parenting and childhood trauma can and do coexist, and is a necessary acknowledgement toward healing/repair over venting/blaming.
What stood out the most is how the pendulum has swung so far in response to real harm that any enforcement of boundaries or limits is now framed as abuse. I can draw a parallel between parenting and developing assertiveness and self-respect after years of people pleasing. When a person high in agreeableness begins to practice boundaries, they’re terrified they’ll be called controlling, toxic, or abusive, because often that's what happens.
As usual, your precision and honesty names the tensions that tend to get flattened into villain/victim binaries because of people's discomfort with complexity.
There’s parents trying to figure it out and be the right blend of so many things but get some parts wrong and then there’s parents that take their frustrations or perversions out on their children. Or those trying to win a popularity contest with their children
Thank you so much for the mention. I am reading your article feel weight lifted off my shoulders 🙏
As a parent who's now a grandmother I agree with what you said but I also disagree with it. I think there's a huge move right now from adult children especially those just becoming parents to think they know everything and I know that from watching it but from also being one of those adult parents. I really remember thinking I knew everything and I didn't, boy I didn't! I think that there's a combination of both and I think there are an awful lot of young adults now who do look to blame their parents for a lot of things and I agree parents hold responsibility for some of the problems their children. Growing up isn't a simple thing. Society have has an outsized influence because of the change in the way families live and the utter lack of community. I wouldn't have considered myself a feminist but I bought all the feminist crap for many years and it wasn't till I was in my late 40s that I started to seriously examine most of the things that I thought were fact so I can see it both ways. I certainly don't think it's one way or the other for sure and I don't see that we're being very fair to parents either. There are no rules norms anymore and that is very difficult when you're trying to figure out where you fit in as an adult and without them it's a free-for-all and I think that that makes it really hard for my generation and the new one to figure out what they're supposed to do and so mistakes get made. These mistakes often have a negative effect on children unfortunately but I do not think demonizing parents fixes it because there is a definite lack of personal accountability in these last couple generations.
I hope the feminism starts to go in reverse. Unfortunately, it will be too late for me, but hopefully women in the future can have it better.
I’m glad you wrote this. You’re among several people who’ve recently said similar to me. It seems likely there is something different going on today in 2025, something beyond the normal “I can’t stand my parents” that comes and goes with age.
The outsized influence of society that you pointed to, I suspect that’s bigger than we know, and probably bigger than I know.
Society rewards family destruction like never before. Victimhood is prized like never before. Parents are not allowed to have imperfections and adult children are “stunning and brave” for cutting the family loose, denying their own children an extended family relationship. Every disagreement isn’t abuse. Ideological purity has replaced normal discourse. The people dismissing their parents now, will find themselves in the same position one day, because their children will grow up without knowing how to resolve differences. The world would be a better place if everyone would take responsibility for their own shit and stop whining.
Josh, I have a question, please enlighten me. First of all, I’m totally on board with what you are saying. I know this is a sensitive topic for you.
When I grew up it was known as discipline and now it’s abuse. That’s how current society refers to this situation. We are in a lawless society, therefore any punishment a parent may use to a child is considered over excessive, unwarranted or unnecessary. Then we end up with the spoiled brats you speak of, never held accountable for their actions. But yet, yes absolutely, there are parents who indeed truly abuse their kids.
Now the question. To you as a counsellor. How does a parent discipline in today’s culture ? What constitutes true abuse ? When do the abuse cries become a calling wolf situation ? How is a kid ever going to learn if they’re always coddled ?
I’m not a parent. I’m just a guy trying to understand where the line is or should be drawn.
Help me out on this.
I never hit my kids or even did a time out which was a big thing in the 90s
Logical consequences and always always following through unless certain circumstances you don’t want to be a Gestapo about it, but you should always do what you say
Logical
For instance, your son is bumping the ball in the house. You say to him if you keep bouncing it inside the house I’ll take that for today. If he doesn’t listen, go right up to him and say listen. I am gonna take it if you do it even one more time and then take it if he does it. He’s doing something wrong with the ball so it’s logical to take it.
If you and your family are making pudding. Three kids one of them is double dipping and you don’t like it say do it one more time and you are out, do what you say
Another important thing is preparation Tell them what to expect before hand. OK, we are each going to take turns and if someone jumps in they lose a turn in that rotation of stirring the pudding. Then, if someone tries to jump in on someone else, they lose a turn. They do it again and they have to find another activity.
You don’t have to get angry. It doesn’t have to be a punishment. It’s a logical consequence you tell them before hand. I don’t want you spreading germs, for instance, so what can we do and if they say well, we shouldn’t double dip then they are 10 times more likely to remember not to do it
You could also have a helper
So many incidences Make sure you’re in a car all the kids have a lot to do. Whatever special activity they have to leave five minutes if they fight or worse, if you think the fight is worse, etc., but it should always be a logical consequence
Hitting is never a logical consequence it doesn’t make the brain think the kid usually just feels bad for himself and he also thinks he is bad. He’s mad at the parents himself when it all could’ve been avoided in a lot of ways.
I had done all kinds of jobs throughout the years working with children, I have education and a lot of classes past my degrees.
Warning them in five minutes we are going to Stop as a big help. Three more minutes then they are not disappointed in 95% of the time they go.
Sorry about grammar, etc.. I’m talking using voice control and it gets messed up, but I can’t type quickly.
If you really want to know- give a specific example or two. What is the "it" you are referring too?
This may be a little too simplistic and maybe too old (the 60’s) as things have changed 50 times between then and now. The was a Dick Van Dyke episode where son Richie was learning new words as a 6 (or whatever) year old. And as ever kid would have done then, some weren’t the nicest (although we never know what) the whole story was around what was the right way to deal with the situation. Mom wanted to ignore it. Dad wanted to “discuss it” and take the “don’t you say that again” approach. The interesting thing about it was, whenever someone found out what the words were, the response was “…dad did xxx….and a rap in the mouth”. Or “aunt Esther would sit us down and lecture…oh, and a rap in the mouth”. Even the preacher came to the house and finished up the conclusion that “…dad would give us a rap in the mouth” The threat was the fear it would happen, not that it necessarily would. It was a deterrent. And it was. I got whacked a few times. Nothing that would put me in the hospital, but enough to get the message across and the idea I didn’t want to have it happen again. I saw my brother taken to task, I wasn’t going to have that happen to me - so I stayed out of trouble.
But that was 1965 and not 2025. Things began to change in the late ‘60s with all the war protests, and the “I’m not going to do that, I don’t have to do that” attitudes. But these were more-so adults than “kids”. But the mind set changed and those would become parents passing on those attitudes. My point I guess is that there are no real deterrants right now, so little Johnny feels entitled to do what ever he pleases…and then it extends into adulthood.
Long and short, the “it” would be a spanking, a bar of soap in the mouth or “a rap in the mouth”. As time progressed, “time outs” or “standing in the corner” became the go to. Then it was an acceptable form of discipline, designed to provide a consequence to control a potential unacceptable behavior. That does not seem to exist right now, good or bad. You can hope a talking to, a discussion or taking a ball or tablet away would work. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. But there is a definite lack of something right now. I think Josh said it right when he stated “cruel to be kind, in the right measure”.
I have controlled 20 and 30 children at once in the inner cities without ever hitting them.
What it is is feminine mothers at home that we are lacking and masculine fathers that children could actually look up to.
Mothers are working all day and then tired too tired to make good nutrition and then expect the kids to do well. Give me a break the kids and sugar all day then most do not exercise. That is a recipe for diabetes.
They see the father always henpecked. Anytime they see anything on TV or in the media. He is the loser.
And you think the kids are going to respect him ?!
They don’t need a slap to respect him
Turn off the damn TV !!!
Watch out for the media
Watch out with people you hang out with
Do wholesome activities
People let their teenagers run wild you have to make sure they are doing something every minute and they have to be accomplishing something or they will be completely bored and vandalizing the school. If you get them on the right track and you inspire them for greatness, then you don’t have to babysit them every minute, but you have to be a good model.
A very lazy way would be to hit them
Did you ever see Moana the Disney movie?
Did you see what a witch she was to her father ?!?!
I’m serious. It was outrageous.
People take their daughter to see this and then wonder why she’s some kind of ho/cretin. Seriously if you see this movie, she is disgusting to her father, but we are so used to seeing this that we don’t see it. Do we?
Not enough of us do that’s for damn sure but maybe people are waking up
I don't think it is too simplistic. I have looked back to plenty of tv for inspiration (Little House on the Prairie, Road to Avonlea, the Cosby Show, etc.) and while I know things are deliberately crafted to have a good ending in a tv show- I still find them encouraging.
I think it is interesting that even back in the 60s adults were referencing a "rap in the mouth" as a form of "the good old days." People tend to look back on the times when parents were more physically rough with kids as a better time but I think it is safe to say that, 70 years later, that was clearly not good parenting. Each generation has gotten noticeably worse- not better- as a result of trying to resolve all the personal problems that came from parents' use of physical punishment.
I think one negative shift that no one noticed at the time was an almost universal dropping of the word "punishment" and replacing it with "discipline." But the actions of the parents didn't change. They still reacted to their kids however they saw fit- whether it actually imparted any understanding of discipline at all. A spanking or bar of soap in the mouth is punishment. It doesn't give the child a chance to fix a mistake, it doesn't matter if you reflect at all- you are still hurt. Nothing about those things teach discipline. Just avoidance. Maybe sometimes it teaches avoidance of a negative behavior. But more often than not it teaches avoidance of responsibility, avoidance of parents, etc. Punishment is something that should happen after all other attempts to teach or have something repaired are exhausted. It shouldn't be the default way of teaching a child (especially a very small, young child) what is and is not acceptable or moral behavior. I have wondered if people had continued to use the word punishment in relationship to all the things that they did that were actually punishments, if it would have resulted in a greater cultural understanding of how much adults were just reacting to and punishing children and not actually teaching them any form of discipline whatsoever. We clearly see that almost no discipline has been taught whatsoever for the past 70 years but we don't have all the answers as to why. But I do blame the softening of "punishment" to "discipline" with no understanding or accountability for what those two words actually mean for a portion of the problem.
I have also noticed that parenting has completely ceased to be something that is done for the benefit of children and our civilization. Because it is the most rewarding and fulfilling thing you will ever do in life, people have decided (across right/left, Christian/atheist, etc.) that parenting is supposed to be designed around what is most personally fulfilling for you, the adult, at the time it is happening. So parenting is now just a personal choice- like everything else. You will find very few parents who will acknowledge that there are some right and wrong ways to parent that should be fairly universal. Everyone wants to parent only in ways that "feel right for their family" which means there are no more norms for family life. That is the lack that you are noticing. We are not going to get that back for a long time- if ever because there is no group (no matter how you divide people up) who is going to be willing to give up their unique parenting style. And because everyone wants parenting to remain as specific and unique as every individual- no one will to hold bad or abusive parents accountable. Grown children are left to navigate the fall-out in a world where no one will admit that there should be standards for how children are treated and raised.
Good points, well stated.
What about this ? Do you think, without referring to a specific following, that the reduced dedication or influence of religion (in general) has an effect on how parents parent. In other words, is there no longer a moral guidance involved ? Have the religions become too political themselves ? Or does that not play into any of this at all.
My son has his own son now and he mentioned that he was surprised that other young parents he knew had no framework or plan for how they wanted to raise their children - whereas he and his wife were consciously thinking about what they had to do to raise a child with a strong sense of morality. In my experience about 75.% - 80% of parents no longer care to instill or even discuss moral guidance. Postmodern moral relativism abounds. I also think too many parents don’t have the fortitude or discipline to model “moral” behaviors so they make excuses like - I can’t tell them to do and act in ways I don’t follow. Instead of realizing the truth in that statement they assert they aren’t hurting anyone and carry on letting the kids follow. I think religion is making a comeback - but reading philosophy - and having a sense duty to those around you and taking pride in your responsibilities are strong substitutes. Too many adults and children run from commitment and responsibility instead of conceptualizing duty and obligation as noble virtues. I think society would benefit from parenting that focused on raising sons to be honorable husbands and fathers and daughters who recognized the importance of tenderness and the strength of purpose it requires to raise the next generation.
Well said. Thank you.
I think most major American religious groups (granted Christianity is the one I am most familiar with) are guilty as well. They, as a whole, also embrace the late 20th century (the 70s on) problem of defining, understanding, and acting ONLY in merely personal terms. They might be correct in pointing out cultural problems that can be laid at the feet of leftists but they do not accept criticisms of their own highly subjective and personal treatment of long-standing traditions and knowledge. They are quick to re-interpret or redefine scripture to fit what they want. If schools, libraries, etc. begin to falter or fail- they just ditch the whole thing and move and do their own thing. Then they wail 15-20 years later when every cultural institution is falling down around them as if they had not been neglecting and deserting them the entirety of that time for the sake of their own personal problems and beliefs.
I don’t know how we come back from this. I think our best chance (and we may have one with whatever generation is currently teenagers and early 20s now) is to push people, not to abandon their God-given individuality, but to learn how it has to integrate into families, homes, churches, communities (schools, libraries, local charities, etc.), larger democratic practices, etc. with tremendous respect for all those institutions have given people. Very young people seem to be interested in why these things were important for thousands of years and seem to be willing to think twice before throwing them out. They seem to be more receptive to the idea that the whole of society does not exist to worship at the alter of you individually.
I know that is a little off the subject of punishment and discipline but I think if we orient ourselves towards the larger goal first, we will have a better chance of sorting out the small things intuitively.
I had a few simple (and humorous) statements I would use on my son - my job is to get your sperm in the best uterus available to ensure these genes continue on....and the woman owning that uterus is gonna be picky - so you better up your game right now; self-esteem begins with self ... so don't tell me I hurt your self-esteem - listen to what I'm saying - get your ass in your room and figure out what you need to do to be proud of yourself; I don't own your success but I also don't own your failure; you're supposed to fail - so don't be ashamed - it's how you learn - and it's better to fail young when the consequences are less dire and I'm here to help you right the ship; they say a child will succeed if there is one person in their life that truly loves and believes in them - I am that person and I believe in you. He turned out quite well :-)
“Get your ass in” that’s humiliating language, really white trash, kind of language
Ok - everyone’s entitled to their opinion - but nothing wrong with a little white trash now and then. However, I am not a receptacle for your hostile and bellicose projections so perhaps you should consider the advantages of shutting your pie hole. I stand by my parenting and the words I chose to convey my sentiments to my son. Kindly and respectfully - go fuck your self.
Ha ha. And hopefully in addition to continuing the genes- just being able to build a happy life with someone who is sweet and loves him as much as he loves her.
I think it is good to give kids that kind of inspiration. Especially dads to sons. If a young man knows he has good, solid reasons to be proud (not vain) of the skills he has built and the character he has formed he will not be afraid to go out and make a family with someone who both honors those qualities and has them herself. That is the real adventure. Not self-gratifying hedonism. I think guys need to feel that being worthy of and "winning" a good woman* and having a family of their own is a crucial of the adventure of the myth/fairy tale.
That is one of the reasons parents have to be tough sometimes. We are raising someone else's husband or wife and father or mother. It's not just about us.
*Quick disclaimer: I do not believe women are LITERALLY property.
It seemed to me that he was saying if you cannot hit your kids what should you do?
And I am saying preparation, preparation, preparation. Have back packs filled with stuff even snacks always ready. Rotate the toys. Bring it anywhere outside. You don’t have to discipline children who are busy.
Prepare the rules ahead of time with the children if you are going to the doctors or anywhere. Say to them. “what is the safest and most fun way we can get through this food shopping together?”
You’d be surprised, the excellent ideas they would have. Give them jobs to do. Give them parts of list although I would be very careful about sending children into another aisle alone. It could be that very aisle you are on, but just the other side. Get them in the helping feeling. Give them a reward if everybody cooperates. If they don’t, they’re not part of the reward.
You should always follow what you say but if there are several logical but negative consequences that follow together it should be that a child is asked if he or she is sick or has a problem, etc. because you never know about that either You cannot be rigid
There is a difference between discipline and abuse, but as a society we’re having a hell of a time delineating it. I think this is another one of those situations where what Ken means by abuse may not be what Josh means by abuse may not be what Mary means abuse, etc. We’d all do well to get more specific with each other—words have been redefined under our nose. Seems like all the time to me.
I can only say what I think (and my mind can be changed with a good argument).
I recognize that discipline is now called “abuse” by too many people. Were I a parent, I’d practice strict boundaries, responsibilities, consequences for breaking them, but also understanding about being a growing up human.
Modern permissive parenting leads to insecure, unstable, spoiled, and unpleasant adult personalities. We’ve gone way too permissive.
I see the following things as abuse—lying to children (except necessary white lies, and these are tough), putting your adult responsibilities on them instead of the other way around, gaslighting them, treating them inconsistently all the time and changing the rules on the fly, mocking them for their genuine emotional states instead of helping them integrate those emotions. Obviously, beatings and sexual stuff are abuse, but as you know, I’m keyed in on the interpersonal and emotional abuse.
I think a good parent has to be “cruel to be kind, in the right measure” sometimes. A firm “no” to a child who says he’s the opposite sex, for example, would be called “cruel” today. I think it’s the most loving, grounding thing a parent could do. They need more than just that, of course.
I don’t know if I’ve answered your question Ken, but it’s a necessary conversation. We all should be having it more often.
I think you have. Not just answered but backed it up with good examples and explanations. I think it boils down to the excessive permissiveness that creates the problems. And I think that permissiveness comes from the “woke” mindset and the “cancel culture” that evolved from it. The only thing you didn’t touch on was, when does a situation become a crying wolf, or does it ever ?
Also, whether you are a white or Asian male doesn’t matter, but one thing is obvious you should not send your kids to school to learn to hate you because they’ve learned that these males are oppressors.
Too bad if the word for slave came from the word, Slavic because whites were Arab slaves for over 1000 years. We don’t talk about that at all so why do we just blame White males for everything? Take away scholarships from Asian males? The school system demonizes who they please.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and I agree that everything bad is coming from the feminism and woke mind culture that started so long ago!
Do you mean like the boy who cried wolf or a cry for help?
A cry for help I think and a great question. You can look up the fable of the boy who cried wolf if you never heard of it. Now crying for help means that the kid is doing things to get attention. Yes, I would always try to seek a council even though you have to be careful that they don’t blame you. There are many factors and I think the parents are strong factors but even the SSH grouping like alpha beta Delta gamma, and Omega. People do have natural tendencies of leadership or following others and some people have a kind of smart ass . It’s called a gamma.
You should look this up
If you have a son for instance, and you think he is a gamma you really do have to do things a certain way, which is pretty much not let him get away with anything at all or he will push you to death.
So if you put “SSH gamma” you should get a description. It’s the social hierarchy that every creature has on earth. Wolves have it, beesIf you think that’s your kid, you should find out more.
If you think he is crying out for help, you should talk to a counselor just in case
I was referring to the boy crying wolf and when is it for attention as you say and when is it real.
Oh the boy who cried Wolf! If you want to you can PM me a specific situation That could be about a family friend or somebody that you know at work, etc.
The "gentle parenting" thing is creating monsters.
"We use GENTLE WORDS when we speak to each other, Tragedeigh."
"Ayydenn, can you tell me how you think Magnum might feel when you won't share the toy? How could we help make him feel better?"
"Please stop hitting mommy, Q'uin. It hurts when you hit mommy."
*10 seconds later*
"OK, Q'uin, Mommy is asking you not to hit her again. If you keep hitting, we'll have to stop playing together and do a big, long hug inside the heavy blanket. OK? OK?..."
Discipline is where you set up logical rules and expectations and then follow through, like what Sharon R. Fiore was saying upthread. It's about teaching your kids how to function -- how to get a handle on their emotions, how to interact properly, how to be a productive member of society.
Abuse is motivated by the parent's pathology. In our house, the primary unspoken rule was "don't piss off dad." He regularly exploded at us, and we never knew whether doing something today was going get us punished or whether he'd not even notice.
A parent calmly delivering a paddling after a kid breaks a rule -- which had as its stated penalty a paddling -- is much different from a parent unleashing his wrath on a kid's backside because he got triggered by dumb kid behavior.
Likewise, a parent calmly (or with some frustration) sending a kid into timeout as part of an established procedure is not the same as an enraged parent arbitrarily shouting the kid into another room where she's terrified of coming out for several hours.
Wrath, malice, sadism, indifference, manipulation, prevarication -- exposing children to these wicked states of mind is where the abuse comes in. A normie parent who loses her cool sometimes but who calms down and apologizes to the kids is not abusive. A parent who enjoys provoking her children to tears definitely is.
Kids can sense ill intent in their parents. They know when the parent is enforcing a rule vs a parent who is just being mean.
Your lips to God’s ear.
Josh, you hit the nail on the head. Kids need to know parents have boundaries to keep them safe - if not, they don't feel secure enough to explore. Kids also need boundaries because rebelling is necessary for growing up. I see kids acting out or wanting to identify as a different sex or an animal and I think...those poor kids had no other boundaries to push because their parents decided it was more rewarding (and easier) to be their friend. Conversely, it's abusive not to allow your kid some measure of independence and responsibility - some opportunity to fail (or succeed) because independence/responsibility is what separates kids from adults. I see teenagers allowed to have boyfriends sleep over - come home at all hours - decide they want to attend on-line high school - but they can't figure out how to get a job or cook a meal. If you allow your kids to enjoy the benefits of being an adult without the responsibility - what will motivate them to grow up and assume responsibility?
Screens are not good. Toys, coloring, books, books, stickies, stickers, pens, pencils, mechanical pens, pencil sharpener, crayons, paper, crossword puzzles, little scissors, with a bag to hold any little pieces because they should not be on the Dentist office floor. Glue stick. Markers. All those things I mentioned are much more important than any choice they could have especially electronic toy
Origami kit is fun a crochet kit sewing, box with toy cars, and a mat that the kids drew a town on or you buy one
I think you nailed it when you say keep em busy !
Yes, but also always make sure they are prepared
When you think about it, it’s kind of unfair to just suddenly say come on kids let’s go !!!
If they can be prepared a little, it’s great
One of my college teachers literally had us doing a craft and then suddenly stopping us, and we realized how much we represented him stopping our conversation without warning us and we didn’t wanna do it to the kids anymore. We learned a craft for the kids that day and a valuable lesson about how they probably just want to be treated like the way we want to be treated. The golden rule is helpful as well.
Ken, I think it's a great question and one that children of cluster B parents often struggle with (at least I do). I think of it like this...discipline is done for the child and should result in something positive at some point in time (increased self-control, delayed gratification, appropriate conduct, instilled morals). Abuse is done for the sake of the parent and isn't aimed at helping the child learn beneficial life lessons. It's a fine line but at its core I think it involves the motivations of the parents. Today, folks accuse parents of abuse (harming self-esteem) if they punish a child for getting bad grades - or tell them to put on a more appropriate outfit - while they praise parents who hover over and infantilize their children. So, we are dealing with a couple of confounding variables - a) it's hard to determine someone's motivations, and b) we live in a very self-centered, shallow and amoral culture that rewards the parents as friend model (a model I seriously disagree with). As I look back on my childhood and try to tease these issues apart I often tick through a series of questions....did the actions of my parents help me establish a sense of agency and self-sufficiency? Did I trust my parents judgement? Did I feel that their actions were logical and predictable and did they help me understand what actions I should engage in or avoid in the future? Let's also keep in mind that abuse is not always overt - sometimes it's the things that are not done and said that are problematic. When my shrink suggested I was emotionally and psychologically abused by my mother (diagnosed borderline) I told him I thought that description was exaggerated - he countered by saying that was a textbook response (point being - it often takes a long time to acknowledge that what you endured was abuse). It's a struggle to accept - and equally as difficult to know how to balance the dependency we have on our parents - the love we still feel for them - the good aspects that are there - with the cruel and abusive parts. Part of the discipline vs abuse tension lives inside most abused children...so when I see kids these days proudly asserting how they went no contact with parents it makes me think...an abused child would have a much more difficult time accepting the term "abusive parents" let alone cutting off a parent. When a child is abused it seems to instill a sense of profound guilt - a feeling that this person needs you and it would be selfish to walk away - a sense of doubt about your own perception of the situation. I don't know if that helps - I just know that abused children/adults also struggle with the question you raised.
Yes, they definitely do. Physical and mental injuries.
It has always seemed to me that adults who were abused as kids take time and need space to talk about their experiences… the rest are just wanting to be victims. Curious to see if you agree. Thanks Josh
I sometimes fantasize about how things might have been different if my mother had simply said to me, as an adult, "I'm sorry for some of the things I did that I know hurt you kids. I wish I could have done better." But no. Trying to get my mother to take responsibility for her mistakes and horrific abuse was as frustrating as trying to nail jello to a tree. So often, when I tried to talk to her about our childhood, she'd quickly cut me off and counter with, "you think YOU KIDS had it bad, you should have seen my childhood." I call that the "you can't complain about having one arm when I have no arms" defense. I can still vividly recall how astonished I felt when I was trying to explain to her how horrifically traumatic it was for us 3 little kids to see my mother physically attacking my father. She said, "if I had known how bad it was for you to witness that, I wouldn't have done it." How can you not know that it's bad for kids to see their mother beating their father?? She lost all credibility and we were estranged on and off through adulthood. I did not shed a single tear when she died.
It's true - the linguistic pendulum has swung so hard, it's crashed into the other side and left a giant hole in the drywall. Because when *everything* is "abusive narcissism," or "toxicity," then *nothing* is. The words have been robbed of their correct meaning - plz. see also "sexism," "racism," and "homophobia."
It seems to be in fashion for many adult children to accuse their parents of being toxic or narcissistic especially white middle or upper class kids. That might be because our culture encourages victimhood and they can't claim race or financial deprivation? But that's only a certain segment. Unfortunately though I think most people who say they were abused are right. Perhaps the outright beatings aren't as prevalent as they used be but it still exists, and even more so abuse by neglect and mental cruelty. My daughter had a gig as a substitute teacher and was shocked that at least half the kids in her class were ignored by their parents or guardians, have witnessed or been on the receiving end of completely irrational, uncontrolled behavior and have been subjected to having to see vicious and violent fights between their parents or guardians, forcing them to listen to adult subject matter no kid should have to be aware of. These children are suffering from emotional deprivation. What discipline they recieve is doled out in moments of anger or frustration, causing it to be ineffective and out of line with the infraction.
In my experience, there can be a context and history resulting in poor parenting.
Both of my parents were Jewish, born and raised in the Depression / WWII era to parents who were 1st generation Americans and preoccupied with survival and obedience. There was also a long history of abuse by the men on Dad's side. So, life was harsh & unfair in Eastern Europe. So was the parenting once in America.
What was different about my own upbringing was that my cousins (both sides) and classmates (in strictly religious schools) somehow were better adjusted, behaved, and in general more joyful than my brother and I, and I knew as a child that my family was not like other families.
Here is how:
My parents were the 'black sheep' of their families (either abused or overlooked) and were less trusting and willing to accept family or outside help parenting as adults. They were isolated from family and slow to befriend strangers. There was no yelling or histrionics, just silent treatment and withdrawal, so one had to guess at the issue. Punishment was inconsistent and not related to an immediate behavior. There was no preparation or guidance for what and when to do or stop doing something. There was no mention of forgiveness or apology.
My parents were deeply damaged but functional and provided food / clothing / shelter / education to the best of their ability. My brother and I are also damaged, and have not had kids. We've both done our best to forgive (admittedly, my brother is better at this) partly because in later years their damage was increasingly apparent.
I'm bringing these painful factors up because some of today's parenting problems may have deep roots, and may also be present in the immigrant / wartime cultures arriving now.
Please think carefully before becoming a parent!!! - Thank you
I know it can't be done, but I've often thought that there should be a licensing requirement to become a parent. The cavalier attitude of so many toward that major life decision is abhorrent. I'm talking about unintended pregnancy, too, which 99 times out of 100 could have been prevented if there was any emphasis on the moral and ethical aspects of childrearing. Instead, many people give little forethought to the consequences of premarital, and even marital sex. It's an afterthought, for which abortion now is commonly used to eradicate the consequence.
The decision to bring a child into the word may be the most important and consequential decision most of us will ever make. To treat it without gravitas and respect, with a thorough understanding of what the responsibilities are to being a responsible and good parent is unforgivable.
You are right on the target again here, Josh. I have known great parents with an abusive child who certainly wasn't raised that way, and horrible parents with kids that were more responsible than the parents and turned out very well. Having read the other comments, I agree that consistent clear boundaries for behavior, with proportionate consequences for breaking the rules, probably is the best type of parenting style, but some parents just can't do this for whatever reasons, and some kids just won't stay in the boundaries no matter what the consequences.
Also, sometimes parent and child personalities are so different that they can't understand each other and some kind of discord is the result. In my own family, my parents were both good people but had their own problems and when I was a teenager they had no emotional resources to deal with me. As I grew up I developed into a person so different from my parents that we didn't have much in common so we moved apart. I didn't hate them but they just weren't a part of my life. I tried to parent my stepdaughter differently and it worked, I remain close to her and her family.
Excellent piece that provides an expansion beyond the good/bad parent frame. Good parenting = no childhood trauma and bad parenting = childhood trauma. This piece captures the reality that good parenting and childhood trauma can and do coexist, and is a necessary acknowledgement toward healing/repair over venting/blaming.
What stood out the most is how the pendulum has swung so far in response to real harm that any enforcement of boundaries or limits is now framed as abuse. I can draw a parallel between parenting and developing assertiveness and self-respect after years of people pleasing. When a person high in agreeableness begins to practice boundaries, they’re terrified they’ll be called controlling, toxic, or abusive, because often that's what happens.
As usual, your precision and honesty names the tensions that tend to get flattened into villain/victim binaries because of people's discomfort with complexity.