I recently saw a pic of her in concert (that she showed up for several hours late) and she looked comical. Mother Nature always wins the aging battle. Some people become bitter (been around any gay 50s and 60s), some pretend they’re still young and gorgeous (ditto) or they make peace and move on. Everyone has their day in the sun and then time moves on. Madonna can’t say goodbye so she hangs on living a lie and her legacy becomes laughable. Sad.
My goal is to age gracefully and to extend my healthy years. My mom did this and she's still getting looks from men 40 years her jr, she just pats them on the proverbial head and keeps living with grace.
“This woman is what’s wrong with our culture. Her values are in contradiction to everything that I think is healthful, wholesome, and needful to have a good society.”
Since her biggest influence was Marilyn Monroe, and knowing MM’s background, that she chased after JFK with reckless abandon plus her other values, Madonna is what MM would have become.
MM’s fans still mourn her loss. Along with Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain (among many others who died young). I hate to say it, but some of those people likely would not have matured had they lived, so the world didn’t lose much.
Though it’s hard to say. Some of them may have entered rehab. Some of them, though, I doubt it.
One’s man’s fealty is another man’s respect. Or, it’s just honesty, sometimes.
When you can lead a morally and ethically pristine life, as pure as the wind driven snow, then you can judge other people for their past mistakes. Until then, buzz off.
Well said. I was also a big M fan as a kid. Lost interest after Music but loitered a bit longer. Hung Up was a nice blip; however, her narcissism is overwhelming. This is why she’s a bad actress and a childish writer. She made great art for a longer period than most, but it’s definitely over. I always knew age would be the one thing the devil had over her. I’m sure it’s in their contract. I have wanted to write a version of Faust with a certain female pop star in the eponymous role. “Plastic simulacrum” is a perfect phrase for what she has always been. It’s not quite sad, though. It’s more a phenomenal look into human distortion.
>however, her narcissism is overwhelming. This is why she’s a bad actress and a childish writer.
That's the sort of thing I would hear about Madonna back in the day, and I would get a little weirdly defensive of her, even though I was never her biggest fan. But even then, young and not real sophisticated, I would admit to myself that she was one of those singers who just "tried too hard." I didn't know about narcissism back then, but she did strike me as someone whose confidence could get her into trouble one day, :D
When I was in my 20s and early 30s, I thought the worst thing would be growing old and maybe even still being eccentric Aunt Holly with two cats and no husband. Now that I am well into middle age, I cannot believe that I would have wanted to miss out on these years, or my future years. Now, I hear about young people being killed in stupid accidents or overdosing and I am sick about it. How a life could be that short. That's an abomination if there every was one. However, I really think that there are some celebrities who still believe that growing old and less relevant to the public is the worst thing ever. They're really convinced of this. Some non-celebrities, too. They are the ones who seem alien to me now. No one should miss life for all the world.
Damn, I really loved reading your comments. Thank you for responding to me, too. For what it's worth, I think my comment maybe sounded kind of stupid and fake. i don't go around grateful and happy all the time, obviously. As for the "aunt holly" stuff, none of my nieces and nephews ever treat me like such a dumb cliche, I'd be surprised if the even found it at all funny. I'm a little weird, not necessarily look the part, most of the time. I don't know about you, but I sure don't have to be single.
I'm glad to be subscribed to you. You write very evocatively of your days in LA, I want to know more.
The difference between Madonna at 65 and you in middle age -- between unhealthy denial and maturity -- is the implicit message of your insightful reflections, insights that extend to the culture she embodies, sadly.
I had a moment when Joni Mitchell took her music off Spotify because Rogan had on Drs that didn’t follow the “narrrative”. Even though I wasn’t a huge fan, I had mad respect for her-she used numerous of her own tunings on her guitar, she was chosen by Mingus to play on his last album. For some reason, her ridiculous gesture over Rogan, disappointed me to the core.
I hear ya. That changes my mind about musicians, even when my love for their music isn't diminished. Garbage was THE band of the late '90s for me, still, but Shirley Manson announced at a recent concert that all TERFs should leave, because they were not welcome. It colors my memories less *real* and less beautiful now.
I'm sorry to hear that about Manson. I've come to realize over the years that it's usually best not to know anything about our heroes. Unfortunately, when they spout nonsense from the performance stage it's impossible to avoid.
It's especially bad when you know that they didn't have to say anything at all. She could've just kept those thoughts in her head. Tiegen and Sarah, they're artists and sisters, I believe. And they gotta tell Americans how old and narrow-minded they are for not being gung ho about trans. Really said something like that. "Your citizens are getting younger and younger and more open minded about these things." A couple of scolds, LOL. Never thought I'd see this.
No! Did Shirley Manson really do that? I attended their 2018 reunion tour and she still had it. They are on tour again later this year but, alas, think I'll pass.
Another disappointment was hearing that The Offspring fired their long-time drummer because he wouldn't get vaccinated. They were one of my favourite bands when I was a teen and lemme just say: that is so not punk rock. What has happened to our 90s idols?!
I'm not a fan of hers really, but she's done so many "reinventions" that probably anyone would maybe like one song or another she did. That confessions album I started to think she was a real artist and respected her, also with the seemingly more grown up ray of light stuff. It almost seemed like she was becoming a mature mom at that point, then something happened when she got older and she regressed. I honestly like when women age naturally and hate people getting work done.
Also she seemed to be laid back on talk show appearances in the 90s and could joke with letterman. I would always go back and forth between being super annoyed at her and being intrigued
I am a 57 year old Middle American woman. I remember my freshman year of college (1984-85), lots of girls on my dorm floor going to see her concert, sporting copies of her "Like a Virgin" clothes and haircuts. I wonder what they think of her now. I liked her music in the early years, but the Sex book made me see her as a sad person trying too hard. Now I feel sorry for her - and especially her children. Josh, your ability to see clearly and grow is far too uncommon in our current world. I appreciate your perspective very much.
To contrast your experience with Madonna, I saw The Who a few years ago and they played a great set, acknowledged the two deceased members of the band in lengthy tributes and played videos of them throughout the decades. They acknowledged passing time, death, age, and the journey they and the fans have been through. It was quite moving, and very adult.
“The woman truly is a modern-day Joan Crawford. She brought three of her adopted African children onstage to perform with her, basking in the attention of being such a selfless World Mother. One of these kids is going to write Madonna Dearest.” <- I saw this a while ago, but didn’t know what to call it. Now, because of you, I know it’s Cluster B.
I watched those weekend’s show this morning and when I heard you were going to see her show, I had a (very) momentary twinge of envy. But now I’m glad you went and I got to read about it here. It is sad — the way she’s clinging so desperately to her youth.
What about her natural children (I think there are two?)? Why weren’t they part of the show too?
Madonna has become a caricature of herself, incapable of embracing what could have been the most important next stage of life, that of the experienced elder. But no, she's too mentally unhealthy, too damaged to do that.
You, unlike Madonna, have aged beautifully in spirit, heart and appearance because you have a depth of wisdom and maturity that has escaped Madonna. Though you both endured terrible traumas, you grew out of your immaturity and the damage inflicted upon you because you chose to give yourself the important task of helping people through your work as an advocate for the consumers of the funeral industry and following that your Disaffected Podcast and Substack which helps so many people who have suffered from parental abuse. This is why you can say goodbye to one of your idols, mourn for her decline but knowing all you can do is walk away.
Forty years ago I was a very liberal and a leftist. If anything, I have become even more so, but today… today I would be called a bigot and a hater, maybe a Putin or Trump lover.
It is American culture, especially the culture approved by our elites and blasted into the internet and the airwaves, that has become a sick joke. Madonna has not only influenced our culture, she is a reflection of our culture. If the changes were based on physical reality, I think I would not be sad even if it became much conservative. Disappointed, maybe, but it is not. It is increasingly based on clouds, fairy dust, and lunacy in all areas like government, business, religion, science, and the arts, and again, Madonna and the culture she reflects is a part of this.
I was and am a Liberal. Nothing has changed. I am not left though and haven’t been for over 50 years. (I was raised hard left). The left though is anything but liberal now. They are pro big government, pro CIA, pro war, pro big pharma, and very much opposed to individuals living and thinking what they choose to do and think.
This article was everything! You put into words what I’ve been unable to articulate, in a polite way, for years. It was blasphemous to my gay ears on so many levels yet I related to every word of it. Thanks for this - it’s refreshing to know I’m not the only gay man who feels this way.
I recently saw a pic of her in concert (that she showed up for several hours late) and she looked comical. Mother Nature always wins the aging battle. Some people become bitter (been around any gay 50s and 60s), some pretend they’re still young and gorgeous (ditto) or they make peace and move on. Everyone has their day in the sun and then time moves on. Madonna can’t say goodbye so she hangs on living a lie and her legacy becomes laughable. Sad.
My goal is to age gracefully and to extend my healthy years. My mom did this and she's still getting looks from men 40 years her jr, she just pats them on the proverbial head and keeps living with grace.
I have met a few still attractive middle aged women who will go out with their very attractive daughter.
“This woman is what’s wrong with our culture. Her values are in contradiction to everything that I think is healthful, wholesome, and needful to have a good society.”
Since her biggest influence was Marilyn Monroe, and knowing MM’s background, that she chased after JFK with reckless abandon plus her other values, Madonna is what MM would have become.
MM’s fans still mourn her loss. Along with Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain (among many others who died young). I hate to say it, but some of those people likely would not have matured had they lived, so the world didn’t lose much.
Though it’s hard to say. Some of them may have entered rehab. Some of them, though, I doubt it.
So you used this as an opportunity to show your hatred for Ronald Reagan. Reagan Derangement Syndrome. That was the point you wanted to make.
One’s man’s fealty is another man’s respect. Or, it’s just honesty, sometimes.
When you can lead a morally and ethically pristine life, as pure as the wind driven snow, then you can judge other people for their past mistakes. Until then, buzz off.
You have anger issues.
Well said. I was also a big M fan as a kid. Lost interest after Music but loitered a bit longer. Hung Up was a nice blip; however, her narcissism is overwhelming. This is why she’s a bad actress and a childish writer. She made great art for a longer period than most, but it’s definitely over. I always knew age would be the one thing the devil had over her. I’m sure it’s in their contract. I have wanted to write a version of Faust with a certain female pop star in the eponymous role. “Plastic simulacrum” is a perfect phrase for what she has always been. It’s not quite sad, though. It’s more a phenomenal look into human distortion.
>however, her narcissism is overwhelming. This is why she’s a bad actress and a childish writer.
That's the sort of thing I would hear about Madonna back in the day, and I would get a little weirdly defensive of her, even though I was never her biggest fan. But even then, young and not real sophisticated, I would admit to myself that she was one of those singers who just "tried too hard." I didn't know about narcissism back then, but she did strike me as someone whose confidence could get her into trouble one day, :D
When I was in my 20s and early 30s, I thought the worst thing would be growing old and maybe even still being eccentric Aunt Holly with two cats and no husband. Now that I am well into middle age, I cannot believe that I would have wanted to miss out on these years, or my future years. Now, I hear about young people being killed in stupid accidents or overdosing and I am sick about it. How a life could be that short. That's an abomination if there every was one. However, I really think that there are some celebrities who still believe that growing old and less relevant to the public is the worst thing ever. They're really convinced of this. Some non-celebrities, too. They are the ones who seem alien to me now. No one should miss life for all the world.
Damn, I really loved reading your comments. Thank you for responding to me, too. For what it's worth, I think my comment maybe sounded kind of stupid and fake. i don't go around grateful and happy all the time, obviously. As for the "aunt holly" stuff, none of my nieces and nephews ever treat me like such a dumb cliche, I'd be surprised if the even found it at all funny. I'm a little weird, not necessarily look the part, most of the time. I don't know about you, but I sure don't have to be single.
I'm glad to be subscribed to you. You write very evocatively of your days in LA, I want to know more.
The difference between Madonna at 65 and you in middle age -- between unhealthy denial and maturity -- is the implicit message of your insightful reflections, insights that extend to the culture she embodies, sadly.
Take a bow.
I had a moment when Joni Mitchell took her music off Spotify because Rogan had on Drs that didn’t follow the “narrrative”. Even though I wasn’t a huge fan, I had mad respect for her-she used numerous of her own tunings on her guitar, she was chosen by Mingus to play on his last album. For some reason, her ridiculous gesture over Rogan, disappointed me to the core.
I hear ya. That changes my mind about musicians, even when my love for their music isn't diminished. Garbage was THE band of the late '90s for me, still, but Shirley Manson announced at a recent concert that all TERFs should leave, because they were not welcome. It colors my memories less *real* and less beautiful now.
I'm sorry to hear that about Manson. I've come to realize over the years that it's usually best not to know anything about our heroes. Unfortunately, when they spout nonsense from the performance stage it's impossible to avoid.
It's especially bad when you know that they didn't have to say anything at all. She could've just kept those thoughts in her head. Tiegen and Sarah, they're artists and sisters, I believe. And they gotta tell Americans how old and narrow-minded they are for not being gung ho about trans. Really said something like that. "Your citizens are getting younger and younger and more open minded about these things." A couple of scolds, LOL. Never thought I'd see this.
I suppose I'll keep listening to my Garbage and Angelfish CDs and try not to think about it.
No! Did Shirley Manson really do that? I attended their 2018 reunion tour and she still had it. They are on tour again later this year but, alas, think I'll pass.
Another disappointment was hearing that The Offspring fired their long-time drummer because he wouldn't get vaccinated. They were one of my favourite bands when I was a teen and lemme just say: that is so not punk rock. What has happened to our 90s idols?!
Wow. That made me a lot more sad than I expected brother. Very well written. I can almost feel the emotion you felt.
I'm not a fan of hers really, but she's done so many "reinventions" that probably anyone would maybe like one song or another she did. That confessions album I started to think she was a real artist and respected her, also with the seemingly more grown up ray of light stuff. It almost seemed like she was becoming a mature mom at that point, then something happened when she got older and she regressed. I honestly like when women age naturally and hate people getting work done.
Also she seemed to be laid back on talk show appearances in the 90s and could joke with letterman. I would always go back and forth between being super annoyed at her and being intrigued
I am a 57 year old Middle American woman. I remember my freshman year of college (1984-85), lots of girls on my dorm floor going to see her concert, sporting copies of her "Like a Virgin" clothes and haircuts. I wonder what they think of her now. I liked her music in the early years, but the Sex book made me see her as a sad person trying too hard. Now I feel sorry for her - and especially her children. Josh, your ability to see clearly and grow is far too uncommon in our current world. I appreciate your perspective very much.
To contrast your experience with Madonna, I saw The Who a few years ago and they played a great set, acknowledged the two deceased members of the band in lengthy tributes and played videos of them throughout the decades. They acknowledged passing time, death, age, and the journey they and the fans have been through. It was quite moving, and very adult.
“The woman truly is a modern-day Joan Crawford. She brought three of her adopted African children onstage to perform with her, basking in the attention of being such a selfless World Mother. One of these kids is going to write Madonna Dearest.” <- I saw this a while ago, but didn’t know what to call it. Now, because of you, I know it’s Cluster B.
I watched those weekend’s show this morning and when I heard you were going to see her show, I had a (very) momentary twinge of envy. But now I’m glad you went and I got to read about it here. It is sad — the way she’s clinging so desperately to her youth.
What about her natural children (I think there are two?)? Why weren’t they part of the show too?
Her bio children are older, and grew up with a father having a say in how they were raised.
The adopted kids have no father figure to speak of, and have probably grown up consumed by their mother's preferences and projections.
>The adopted kids have no father figure to speak of, and have probably grown up consumed by their mother's preferences and projections.
I never thought of that. That is messed up. Those poor kids.
Madonna has become a caricature of herself, incapable of embracing what could have been the most important next stage of life, that of the experienced elder. But no, she's too mentally unhealthy, too damaged to do that.
You, unlike Madonna, have aged beautifully in spirit, heart and appearance because you have a depth of wisdom and maturity that has escaped Madonna. Though you both endured terrible traumas, you grew out of your immaturity and the damage inflicted upon you because you chose to give yourself the important task of helping people through your work as an advocate for the consumers of the funeral industry and following that your Disaffected Podcast and Substack which helps so many people who have suffered from parental abuse. This is why you can say goodbye to one of your idols, mourn for her decline but knowing all you can do is walk away.
You say very kind things. Thank you.
Forty years ago I was a very liberal and a leftist. If anything, I have become even more so, but today… today I would be called a bigot and a hater, maybe a Putin or Trump lover.
It is American culture, especially the culture approved by our elites and blasted into the internet and the airwaves, that has become a sick joke. Madonna has not only influenced our culture, she is a reflection of our culture. If the changes were based on physical reality, I think I would not be sad even if it became much conservative. Disappointed, maybe, but it is not. It is increasingly based on clouds, fairy dust, and lunacy in all areas like government, business, religion, science, and the arts, and again, Madonna and the culture she reflects is a part of this.
I was and am a Liberal. Nothing has changed. I am not left though and haven’t been for over 50 years. (I was raised hard left). The left though is anything but liberal now. They are pro big government, pro CIA, pro war, pro big pharma, and very much opposed to individuals living and thinking what they choose to do and think.
This article was everything! You put into words what I’ve been unable to articulate, in a polite way, for years. It was blasphemous to my gay ears on so many levels yet I related to every word of it. Thanks for this - it’s refreshing to know I’m not the only gay man who feels this way.
I was never a big Madonna fan, but your analysis made me sad for her. It was not mocking or mean spirited but truthful and insightful.