I recently saw a pic of her in concert (that she showed up for several hours late) and she looked comical. Mother Nature always wins the aging battle. Some people become bitter (been around any gay 50s and 60s), some pretend they’re still young and gorgeous (ditto) or they make peace and move on. Everyone has their day in the sun and then time moves on. Madonna can’t say goodbye so she hangs on living a lie and her legacy becomes laughable. Sad.
“This woman is what’s wrong with our culture. Her values are in contradiction to everything that I think is healthful, wholesome, and needful to have a good society.”
Since her biggest influence was Marilyn Monroe, and knowing MM’s background, that she chased after JFK with reckless abandon plus her other values, Madonna is what MM would have become.
MM’s fans still mourn her loss. Along with Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain (among many others who died young). I hate to say it, but some of those people likely would not have matured had they lived, so the world didn’t lose much.
Though it’s hard to say. Some of them may have entered rehab. Some of them, though, I doubt it.
Well said. I was also a big M fan as a kid. Lost interest after Music but loitered a bit longer. Hung Up was a nice blip; however, her narcissism is overwhelming. This is why she’s a bad actress and a childish writer. She made great art for a longer period than most, but it’s definitely over. I always knew age would be the one thing the devil had over her. I’m sure it’s in their contract. I have wanted to write a version of Faust with a certain female pop star in the eponymous role. “Plastic simulacrum” is a perfect phrase for what she has always been. It’s not quite sad, though. It’s more a phenomenal look into human distortion.
When I was in my 20s and early 30s, I thought the worst thing would be growing old and maybe even still being eccentric Aunt Holly with two cats and no husband. Now that I am well into middle age, I cannot believe that I would have wanted to miss out on these years, or my future years. Now, I hear about young people being killed in stupid accidents or overdosing and I am sick about it. How a life could be that short. That's an abomination if there every was one. However, I really think that there are some celebrities who still believe that growing old and less relevant to the public is the worst thing ever. They're really convinced of this. Some non-celebrities, too. They are the ones who seem alien to me now. No one should miss life for all the world.
The difference between Madonna at 65 and you in middle age -- between unhealthy denial and maturity -- is the implicit message of your insightful reflections, insights that extend to the culture she embodies, sadly.
I had a moment when Joni Mitchell took her music off Spotify because Rogan had on Drs that didn’t follow the “narrrative”. Even though I wasn’t a huge fan, I had mad respect for her-she used numerous of her own tunings on her guitar, she was chosen by Mingus to play on his last album. For some reason, her ridiculous gesture over Rogan, disappointed me to the core.
I'm not a fan of hers really, but she's done so many "reinventions" that probably anyone would maybe like one song or another she did. That confessions album I started to think she was a real artist and respected her, also with the seemingly more grown up ray of light stuff. It almost seemed like she was becoming a mature mom at that point, then something happened when she got older and she regressed. I honestly like when women age naturally and hate people getting work done.
Also she seemed to be laid back on talk show appearances in the 90s and could joke with letterman. I would always go back and forth between being super annoyed at her and being intrigued
I am a 57 year old Middle American woman. I remember my freshman year of college (1984-85), lots of girls on my dorm floor going to see her concert, sporting copies of her "Like a Virgin" clothes and haircuts. I wonder what they think of her now. I liked her music in the early years, but the Sex book made me see her as a sad person trying too hard. Now I feel sorry for her - and especially her children. Josh, your ability to see clearly and grow is far too uncommon in our current world. I appreciate your perspective very much.
To contrast your experience with Madonna, I saw The Who a few years ago and they played a great set, acknowledged the two deceased members of the band in lengthy tributes and played videos of them throughout the decades. They acknowledged passing time, death, age, and the journey they and the fans have been through. It was quite moving, and very adult.
“The woman truly is a modern-day Joan Crawford. She brought three of her adopted African children onstage to perform with her, basking in the attention of being such a selfless World Mother. One of these kids is going to write Madonna Dearest.” <- I saw this a while ago, but didn’t know what to call it. Now, because of you, I know it’s Cluster B.
I watched those weekend’s show this morning and when I heard you were going to see her show, I had a (very) momentary twinge of envy. But now I’m glad you went and I got to read about it here. It is sad — the way she’s clinging so desperately to her youth.
What about her natural children (I think there are two?)? Why weren’t they part of the show too?
Madonna has become a caricature of herself, incapable of embracing what could have been the most important next stage of life, that of the experienced elder. But no, she's too mentally unhealthy, too damaged to do that.
You, unlike Madonna, have aged beautifully in spirit, heart and appearance because you have a depth of wisdom and maturity that has escaped Madonna. Though you both endured terrible traumas, you grew out of your immaturity and the damage inflicted upon you because you chose to give yourself the important task of helping people through your work as an advocate for the consumers of the funeral industry and following that your Disaffected Podcast and Substack which helps so many people who have suffered from parental abuse. This is why you can say goodbye to one of your idols, mourn for her decline but knowing all you can do is walk away.
By chance I saw Madge in Hyde Park about 10 years ago and I thought she was tired then, and by that I mean there was nothing new or informative, creative of special about her performance. Her behaviour with her previous husband, dropping the man after he slowly came to realise her unsolvable personality flaws must have been quite upsetting for him. She didn’t seem to be too affected. Revealing for the public paying attention to how she continued to “create” her family from odds and ends of vulnerable children, who must have been somewhat captured by her wealth like an icequeen of myth descending from upon high on the rudimentary cultures she bought them from.
As I have aged into my early 40’s I reflect on the revelations of gay marriage, surrogacy and then more recently the body modification and culture war forged around Trans & Western Marxism movements.
There are few guarantees in life, but having a natural mother, respecting her and having a purposeful, valid and nurturing relationship with her as a child is the most important Jewel that life can bestow on anyone. When gay marriage came along I was conflicted. Largely this was as my life experience growing up in the 90’s in a christian setting where I was rejected by my contemporaries on the basis of my sexuality made me highly suspicious of the gift of a covenant made through God that I had assumed was unattainable for me. For a time I worked to absorb the hope of settling down with a man that I loved (easier said), and perhaps bonding in this new found right of marriage. For my earlier career I had worked as a wedding planner and hotel ops manager and perhaps have worked between 100-150 weddings, seen so many couples and their families tie the knot. But what is marriage for?
If I was to marry, would that mean children? Who would that benefit, me, my partner, the child, my parents?
Ive seen many gay men marry and have kids. Most are wealthy to achieve both; having a child via surrogacy is the desirable choice as very few I have noticed desire to adopt. Why? The drive to survive is in us all. Freud noticed the duality of both the life and death pull in many peoples nature so its possibly unfair to conclude that “looking into the mirror” is the drive behind all things sacred, but there is something to be said about that.
What it comes down to I feel is the Child. If a Child is left without a mother, or has a mother who is emotionally compromised the damage can reverberate through that Childs life and can never be resolved fully. So too can an absent or abusive father have a hugely detrimental impact of a Childs development.
I am happily settled with my partner for over 10 years now. Yes there are things we wish we had that we dont. There are many blessings we have that we take for granted. We do one day soon wish to have our own version of a ceremony and my partner goes to Church in a secular function as a Bellringer 5 times a week. Indeed my soul still connects with the history of the church, the songs, the culture, the architecture and ceremony. But it is out of these loves my partner and I would never wish to encroach on the natural purpose of a marriage, namely to marry before God for the purpose of having a child. To do so we would steal that Child from its mother. We would rob that Child of its first and most sacred relationship.
Madonna is and has always fixed her image on a twisted version of motherhood. She has also encouraged the worst in gay men in particular because it distracts from her own obscenity. If she could have provided the emotional capacity to mother she would have lived a different life and I feel the same way about many gay parents I meet with their own young bundles of impressionable joy. These kids know no better. Their fathers may well provide all the love these kids feel they need. They may not even know what they are missing, and perhaps other women in their lives step up and fill that void, should it be there. I try not to be presumptuous. But should this be the norm? Should we be legislating for it? Should we be encouraging child trafficking? For that is somewhat what surrogacy it comes down to. Even if you are in the UK and you cant directly pay for surrogacy, costs.. a living, and other methods essentially make surrogacy a viable method of providing a living for some women who ‘rent’ their wombs out. Sisters offer their own eggs, sometimes the surrogate herself uses her own.
Im not an active Christian, but I do believe in sacred biology. I do see the natural development of our species as reliant on a ‘natural selection’. The more we erode the basics of what it is to be human, the more we take away our nature be it by test-tube or even non-natural parenting.. the more likely we set ourselves up for failure both psychosomatically and biologically.
We all know by Madonna’s example, how a damaged woman with no boundaries has been let loose on culture and her own adoptees.. but perhaps gay men should take time to reflect what their actions may do to Women and Children alike. Commodities the sacred, even should you be agnostic, and you may just find the agency of humanity is sold down the road to the highest, and the lowest bidders.
Forty years ago I was a very liberal and a leftist. If anything, I have become even more so, but today… today I would be called a bigot and a hater, maybe a Putin or Trump lover.
It is American culture, especially the culture approved by our elites and blasted into the internet and the airwaves, that has become a sick joke. Madonna has not only influenced our culture, she is a reflection of our culture. If the changes were based on physical reality, I think I would not be sad even if it became much conservative. Disappointed, maybe, but it is not. It is increasingly based on clouds, fairy dust, and lunacy in all areas like government, business, religion, science, and the arts, and again, Madonna and the culture she reflects is a part of this.
I recently saw a pic of her in concert (that she showed up for several hours late) and she looked comical. Mother Nature always wins the aging battle. Some people become bitter (been around any gay 50s and 60s), some pretend they’re still young and gorgeous (ditto) or they make peace and move on. Everyone has their day in the sun and then time moves on. Madonna can’t say goodbye so she hangs on living a lie and her legacy becomes laughable. Sad.
“This woman is what’s wrong with our culture. Her values are in contradiction to everything that I think is healthful, wholesome, and needful to have a good society.”
Since her biggest influence was Marilyn Monroe, and knowing MM’s background, that she chased after JFK with reckless abandon plus her other values, Madonna is what MM would have become.
MM’s fans still mourn her loss. Along with Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain (among many others who died young). I hate to say it, but some of those people likely would not have matured had they lived, so the world didn’t lose much.
Though it’s hard to say. Some of them may have entered rehab. Some of them, though, I doubt it.
Well said. I was also a big M fan as a kid. Lost interest after Music but loitered a bit longer. Hung Up was a nice blip; however, her narcissism is overwhelming. This is why she’s a bad actress and a childish writer. She made great art for a longer period than most, but it’s definitely over. I always knew age would be the one thing the devil had over her. I’m sure it’s in their contract. I have wanted to write a version of Faust with a certain female pop star in the eponymous role. “Plastic simulacrum” is a perfect phrase for what she has always been. It’s not quite sad, though. It’s more a phenomenal look into human distortion.
When I was in my 20s and early 30s, I thought the worst thing would be growing old and maybe even still being eccentric Aunt Holly with two cats and no husband. Now that I am well into middle age, I cannot believe that I would have wanted to miss out on these years, or my future years. Now, I hear about young people being killed in stupid accidents or overdosing and I am sick about it. How a life could be that short. That's an abomination if there every was one. However, I really think that there are some celebrities who still believe that growing old and less relevant to the public is the worst thing ever. They're really convinced of this. Some non-celebrities, too. They are the ones who seem alien to me now. No one should miss life for all the world.
The difference between Madonna at 65 and you in middle age -- between unhealthy denial and maturity -- is the implicit message of your insightful reflections, insights that extend to the culture she embodies, sadly.
Take a bow.
I had a moment when Joni Mitchell took her music off Spotify because Rogan had on Drs that didn’t follow the “narrrative”. Even though I wasn’t a huge fan, I had mad respect for her-she used numerous of her own tunings on her guitar, she was chosen by Mingus to play on his last album. For some reason, her ridiculous gesture over Rogan, disappointed me to the core.
Wow. That made me a lot more sad than I expected brother. Very well written. I can almost feel the emotion you felt.
I'm not a fan of hers really, but she's done so many "reinventions" that probably anyone would maybe like one song or another she did. That confessions album I started to think she was a real artist and respected her, also with the seemingly more grown up ray of light stuff. It almost seemed like she was becoming a mature mom at that point, then something happened when she got older and she regressed. I honestly like when women age naturally and hate people getting work done.
Also she seemed to be laid back on talk show appearances in the 90s and could joke with letterman. I would always go back and forth between being super annoyed at her and being intrigued
I am a 57 year old Middle American woman. I remember my freshman year of college (1984-85), lots of girls on my dorm floor going to see her concert, sporting copies of her "Like a Virgin" clothes and haircuts. I wonder what they think of her now. I liked her music in the early years, but the Sex book made me see her as a sad person trying too hard. Now I feel sorry for her - and especially her children. Josh, your ability to see clearly and grow is far too uncommon in our current world. I appreciate your perspective very much.
To contrast your experience with Madonna, I saw The Who a few years ago and they played a great set, acknowledged the two deceased members of the band in lengthy tributes and played videos of them throughout the decades. They acknowledged passing time, death, age, and the journey they and the fans have been through. It was quite moving, and very adult.
“The woman truly is a modern-day Joan Crawford. She brought three of her adopted African children onstage to perform with her, basking in the attention of being such a selfless World Mother. One of these kids is going to write Madonna Dearest.” <- I saw this a while ago, but didn’t know what to call it. Now, because of you, I know it’s Cluster B.
I watched those weekend’s show this morning and when I heard you were going to see her show, I had a (very) momentary twinge of envy. But now I’m glad you went and I got to read about it here. It is sad — the way she’s clinging so desperately to her youth.
What about her natural children (I think there are two?)? Why weren’t they part of the show too?
Madonna has become a caricature of herself, incapable of embracing what could have been the most important next stage of life, that of the experienced elder. But no, she's too mentally unhealthy, too damaged to do that.
You, unlike Madonna, have aged beautifully in spirit, heart and appearance because you have a depth of wisdom and maturity that has escaped Madonna. Though you both endured terrible traumas, you grew out of your immaturity and the damage inflicted upon you because you chose to give yourself the important task of helping people through your work as an advocate for the consumers of the funeral industry and following that your Disaffected Podcast and Substack which helps so many people who have suffered from parental abuse. This is why you can say goodbye to one of your idols, mourn for her decline but knowing all you can do is walk away.
By chance I saw Madge in Hyde Park about 10 years ago and I thought she was tired then, and by that I mean there was nothing new or informative, creative of special about her performance. Her behaviour with her previous husband, dropping the man after he slowly came to realise her unsolvable personality flaws must have been quite upsetting for him. She didn’t seem to be too affected. Revealing for the public paying attention to how she continued to “create” her family from odds and ends of vulnerable children, who must have been somewhat captured by her wealth like an icequeen of myth descending from upon high on the rudimentary cultures she bought them from.
As I have aged into my early 40’s I reflect on the revelations of gay marriage, surrogacy and then more recently the body modification and culture war forged around Trans & Western Marxism movements.
There are few guarantees in life, but having a natural mother, respecting her and having a purposeful, valid and nurturing relationship with her as a child is the most important Jewel that life can bestow on anyone. When gay marriage came along I was conflicted. Largely this was as my life experience growing up in the 90’s in a christian setting where I was rejected by my contemporaries on the basis of my sexuality made me highly suspicious of the gift of a covenant made through God that I had assumed was unattainable for me. For a time I worked to absorb the hope of settling down with a man that I loved (easier said), and perhaps bonding in this new found right of marriage. For my earlier career I had worked as a wedding planner and hotel ops manager and perhaps have worked between 100-150 weddings, seen so many couples and their families tie the knot. But what is marriage for?
If I was to marry, would that mean children? Who would that benefit, me, my partner, the child, my parents?
Ive seen many gay men marry and have kids. Most are wealthy to achieve both; having a child via surrogacy is the desirable choice as very few I have noticed desire to adopt. Why? The drive to survive is in us all. Freud noticed the duality of both the life and death pull in many peoples nature so its possibly unfair to conclude that “looking into the mirror” is the drive behind all things sacred, but there is something to be said about that.
What it comes down to I feel is the Child. If a Child is left without a mother, or has a mother who is emotionally compromised the damage can reverberate through that Childs life and can never be resolved fully. So too can an absent or abusive father have a hugely detrimental impact of a Childs development.
I am happily settled with my partner for over 10 years now. Yes there are things we wish we had that we dont. There are many blessings we have that we take for granted. We do one day soon wish to have our own version of a ceremony and my partner goes to Church in a secular function as a Bellringer 5 times a week. Indeed my soul still connects with the history of the church, the songs, the culture, the architecture and ceremony. But it is out of these loves my partner and I would never wish to encroach on the natural purpose of a marriage, namely to marry before God for the purpose of having a child. To do so we would steal that Child from its mother. We would rob that Child of its first and most sacred relationship.
Madonna is and has always fixed her image on a twisted version of motherhood. She has also encouraged the worst in gay men in particular because it distracts from her own obscenity. If she could have provided the emotional capacity to mother she would have lived a different life and I feel the same way about many gay parents I meet with their own young bundles of impressionable joy. These kids know no better. Their fathers may well provide all the love these kids feel they need. They may not even know what they are missing, and perhaps other women in their lives step up and fill that void, should it be there. I try not to be presumptuous. But should this be the norm? Should we be legislating for it? Should we be encouraging child trafficking? For that is somewhat what surrogacy it comes down to. Even if you are in the UK and you cant directly pay for surrogacy, costs.. a living, and other methods essentially make surrogacy a viable method of providing a living for some women who ‘rent’ their wombs out. Sisters offer their own eggs, sometimes the surrogate herself uses her own.
Im not an active Christian, but I do believe in sacred biology. I do see the natural development of our species as reliant on a ‘natural selection’. The more we erode the basics of what it is to be human, the more we take away our nature be it by test-tube or even non-natural parenting.. the more likely we set ourselves up for failure both psychosomatically and biologically.
We all know by Madonna’s example, how a damaged woman with no boundaries has been let loose on culture and her own adoptees.. but perhaps gay men should take time to reflect what their actions may do to Women and Children alike. Commodities the sacred, even should you be agnostic, and you may just find the agency of humanity is sold down the road to the highest, and the lowest bidders.
Indeed, Madonna is a perpetual self-loather. Sad. It's sad for her, as well as sad for all the narcissistic fans she seduced over the years.
Forty years ago I was a very liberal and a leftist. If anything, I have become even more so, but today… today I would be called a bigot and a hater, maybe a Putin or Trump lover.
It is American culture, especially the culture approved by our elites and blasted into the internet and the airwaves, that has become a sick joke. Madonna has not only influenced our culture, she is a reflection of our culture. If the changes were based on physical reality, I think I would not be sad even if it became much conservative. Disappointed, maybe, but it is not. It is increasingly based on clouds, fairy dust, and lunacy in all areas like government, business, religion, science, and the arts, and again, Madonna and the culture she reflects is a part of this.