This is going to open a can of worms but it needs to be discussed: the AA model has undoubtedly helped millions, but that particular tenet leaves a lot of unfulfilled potential on the table. People never truly heal. They survive, but don't recover. Identifying as permanently limited flies directly in the face of the idea of humans being a divine creation, capable of infinite possibilities. If a person doesn't believe in divine creation, then fine, but that's another basic tenet of 12-step models: belief in a higher power. That makes the two concepts incompatible.
Experience tells me that 12-step programs, for as useful as they are in symptom treatment, have also deeply damaged our cultural psyche, leading to a societywide embrace of external control locus for almost everything. It may temporarily resolve the symptom (substance use) but it cannot possibly address the root cause - the underlying problem - that begat the symptom.
Admitting powerlessness may be alluring due to popular belief, but in my view it only leads to excuse making and a limiting of one's own potential.
Besides, as you say, it is factually untrue. If someone is powerless over a thing, then they cannot possibly say no to it. The very premise is a fallacy on its face.
I have wondered if they would just never try Kombucha because of trace elements. Personally I don’t like alcohol, never have. But I make Kombucha and one time did accidentally make alcohol and got tipsy. I would think people who quit would not be affected by that but I don’t like the feeling (and was upset at the time) so I am not a good judge there.
Some years ago, I went to a weekly al-anon meeting (for six years straight). It helped me hugely to deal with my alcoholic spouse. And the 12 steps were for me a breakthrough at the time, to learn to "Let Go and Let God" over people and things I can't control.
But the concept of uncontrolled drinking as "a disease" always bothered me.
And in the years since, I've thought that compelling someone to identify their self as "an alcoholic" might have been well-meaning, but is really rather sadistic, for the reasons that you and Josh cover here. Instead, they only ought to say "I'm [insert name] and I'm misusing alcohol, which is causing problems in my life."
Makes sense to me. AA's entire existence is based on strict anti-alcohol activism. It's not surprising their stance is zero-tolerance. But it's true that for some people it doesn't have to be that extreme. My dad drank a fifth of Scotch almost every day for years. One day he just stopped. For the rest of his life he would have a beer once in a while, with no problems.
I'm glad you wrote this, even though you're going to open a can of worms. The idea of alcoholism as a binary state, total abstinence or unrestrained indulgence, is one of those things that is just accepted as unquestionable received wisdom, but is total bullshit. For anyone who doubts him -- I was the friend, and we have a very strong and healthy friendship, complete with permission to confront each other and say hard things. We don't have to always agree (and we don't) but we absolutely always hear each other out until the other feels fully heard. If there was a shadow of a doubt in my mind, I'd have played that card and really questioned him. Not only did I not, it didn't even occur to me to do so. Josh is simply not a drinker anymore, period.
I’ve had two ‘accidental’ mouthfuls of alcohol since quitting 6 years ago. A case of mistaken glass identity. The second was at a restaurant and the waitress put a cocktail in front of me, and I thought it was my virgin cocktail. My friends were more shocked than I was, acting like I was going to turn into a booze Hulk right in front of them. It’s an odd sensation. The metallic pinch of alcohol on your tongue. I do miss that. But it didn’t ignite some deep fire in me. If it did then my sobriety was still in-the-works and I needed another trip around the merry go round. That was 5 years ago. And non-alcoholic beers are pretty amazing now if you’re feeling fancy.
Many people view themselves as “victims” of alcoholism, a “persecutor,” that will always be after them. We can take personal responsibility over what we eat or drink. This time of Lent is one of those times when people prove that to themselves by giving up a vice. Interesting timing, Josh.
I remember the time I gave up Pepsi which I was addicted to. It was a caffeine addiction, multiple cans a day. I hated the headache withdrawal from going cold turkey, but I did it because I had made that decision like you. I know the waffling I have been through on cutting specific foods out for a time. So I know the difference. I had decided I didn’t want any more because it was harming me and I wanted better for myself. You can’t pussyfoot around with addictions. It has to be a complete decision.
I am precisely the same! Funny how that works, my brother. 😊 I remember it was the same for me, deciding was my power that day, my actual will, and I wouldn't ignore it or sooth it away again. It felt right in the moment, when I had made that last and final hangover a real doozy. I couldn't remember a single thing I'd done the evening before and even though I knew I blacked out on only 2 drinks, that it was years of abuse that had just left me in that state and primed for a blackout drunk with the mildest of imbibing. But after a year "In The Rooms" I decided I had more power than the 12 steps lead me to believe about myself and I quit AA after it left me with a hangover. Now I can have a single drink (13 years later) and have no interest in returning to my previous state.. it still feels like my will and no drink gets it away from me. I congratulate you. I think you've graduated.
I honestly completely agree with your thoughts about the "I'm powerless over alcohol/substance." Obviously the twelve step model has helped a lot of people and that's absolutely great and I will not begrudge them for that at all. But I did go to a twelve-step program once and it was just incredibly discouraging. It was all about "surrender" and admitting powerlessness (the word "surrender" seemed to be used over and over) and it just felt... wrong? I don't know. Like, "You won't be fixed until you turn your entire mentality over to us." I didn't go back because I knew it was just going to be a waste of my time.
I've learned how to manage substances. Got off 15 years methadone maintenance, I know I'm not bullet proof, but I can handle alcohol and weed. My baseline is one of anxious melancholy, sometimes I need and appreciate a little something to take the edge off.
Growing up there were adults I knew that were former WW2 vets including my uncle. They drank daily, my uncle a six pack a night. But they got up and worked every day, didn’t abuse their family or others or other drama.
Oh my God dude, I did the same thing, just 4 days ago. 20 years and 9 months sober, I did that. I was at a bar with a dance floor, met some new acquaintances, having fun being around them. I just wanted to be a little more in the mix. Just two swallows of a beer. Keeping up the discipline gets tiring, but I don't want to go back into the addiction either. Maybe I just wanted to be a little reckless? But I'm also tired of going places and having to be on guard of the alcohol kryptonite.
FWIW, I stopped going to AA near the 14 year mark. After my second heart attack in two years. I figured that if I'm having heart attacks like that, then I must not be finding what I need in AA.
I've been heart attack free for 7 years.
The ultimate thing that seems to be working for me is something that Josh really doesn't like. I've gone trans. As crazy, ridiculous, and weird as it is, it's working for me. I love being a (fake) chick.
If you're gonna be a fake chick, be a good one. If you don't have one, I recommend a human hair wig (lace front if you can afford it). If you can find some made out of Asian hair for cheap, that works a treat. I used to buy them from Patricia Fields in Manhattan.
Also, wet-set with either pin curls in bobby pins or rollers. These bitches today with their curling irons all walk around with exactly the same size-and-shape-of-the-curling-iron-barrel fake looking "sets." Do a real one; it's much prettier.
So glad you’ve gone past the point of alcohol addiction/dependence and can have a little bit!
I also found freedom from alcohol, and have moved from 100% abstinence to having a drink now and then.
For me, my relationship with alcohol had gotten bad enough that I finally learned that what I thought could “help” wasn’t helping at all. Not one bit.
Although, I didn’t go to AA to help me kick the bottle, I’m familiar with their philosophy and methods from a different 12-step program I participated in decades ago. I have mixed feelings regarding their approach—I do believe my own deliverance from alcohol abuse came when I let go of my delusion that I could use alcohol to “take the edge off” or that a couple drinks could make me feel “more like myself”. In that sense, I had to “surrender” and admit my powerlessness. Basically, I just got fed up with the lying to myself, telling myself I’ll just have that one beer after I picked up my kids from piano lessons, but later needing 2 more in order to try and keep my “happy mom” feeling.
I wasn’t fooling anyone but myself.
After a few years of tea-totaling, I made a new friend who happened to enjoy wine once in a while. Her enthusiasm for the wine itself, not the buzz, convinced me to partake. Over time , wine, beer and a few stronger things (acquired as ingredients for certain desserts) made their way back into my home. I rarely drink these days but I feel free to do so.
Good but watch out for the slippery slope. Another sip here and there. Becomes a habit. Then half a glass. Then a full one.
I am not saying it will play out that way for you, don't have even a guess as to the likelihood, maybe it's low.
But these are very trying times now, the world in upheaval, and most of us helpless to do anything about it. There is an extra amount of stress at this time.
Positive sign that you shared this, both because it means you're less vulnerable and because it's good to be bold enough to interrogate dogmas.
Judging by the comments I read after my post you are not doing something unsafe, so carry on. I have no idea what the numbers are for those who break the total abstinence rule, maybe most don't relapse.
Glad to hear it all went well and that you had a nice dinner out. I also had a period of alcoholism some years ago. I never went cold turkey but slowly decreased while making big changes to my life. Once I'd managed to remove certain triggers and then dealt a bit with the root cause, I found I could go days without a drink. Since then I've gone several months at a time without it and without it being difficult.
I used to do admin for a research project that involved people with alcoholism. The AA model seemed very prevalent. There just didn't seem to be the idea that a former alcoholic could ever be a "former alcoholic". It was a badge for life. Maybe for those people working with our project, that was the case, but it clearly isn't the case for all.
Some people like to identify as things, such as "an alcoholic." It may come ftom wanting to get special treatment or sympathy points.
If someone decides to work on themselves, they may lessen the triggers and no longer get that sympathy. In fact, they can lose aquaintences who enjoy playing the role of savior or fellow victim of alchoholism.
Josh isn't like that. But many people are, I think.
er...get ready for the comments on this one, Josh! :)
Let them. I know what I'm about:)
This is going to open a can of worms but it needs to be discussed: the AA model has undoubtedly helped millions, but that particular tenet leaves a lot of unfulfilled potential on the table. People never truly heal. They survive, but don't recover. Identifying as permanently limited flies directly in the face of the idea of humans being a divine creation, capable of infinite possibilities. If a person doesn't believe in divine creation, then fine, but that's another basic tenet of 12-step models: belief in a higher power. That makes the two concepts incompatible.
Experience tells me that 12-step programs, for as useful as they are in symptom treatment, have also deeply damaged our cultural psyche, leading to a societywide embrace of external control locus for almost everything. It may temporarily resolve the symptom (substance use) but it cannot possibly address the root cause - the underlying problem - that begat the symptom.
Admitting powerlessness may be alluring due to popular belief, but in my view it only leads to excuse making and a limiting of one's own potential.
Besides, as you say, it is factually untrue. If someone is powerless over a thing, then they cannot possibly say no to it. The very premise is a fallacy on its face.
Thank you. It's good to see other people noticing this problem and talking about it.
I agree about the limiting self-talk bound up in this. Yes, it's survival, not recovery.
God, if God exists, is bigger than me. The world is bigger than me. The direction of history is bigger than me.
But alcohol is not bigger than me. It simply is not.
Yes, of course it was bigger than my strength, or bigger than me, for all those years I was a drunk. But it's quite obviously not now.
I have wondered if they would just never try Kombucha because of trace elements. Personally I don’t like alcohol, never have. But I make Kombucha and one time did accidentally make alcohol and got tipsy. I would think people who quit would not be affected by that but I don’t like the feeling (and was upset at the time) so I am not a good judge there.
Some years ago, I went to a weekly al-anon meeting (for six years straight). It helped me hugely to deal with my alcoholic spouse. And the 12 steps were for me a breakthrough at the time, to learn to "Let Go and Let God" over people and things I can't control.
But the concept of uncontrolled drinking as "a disease" always bothered me.
And in the years since, I've thought that compelling someone to identify their self as "an alcoholic" might have been well-meaning, but is really rather sadistic, for the reasons that you and Josh cover here. Instead, they only ought to say "I'm [insert name] and I'm misusing alcohol, which is causing problems in my life."
Makes sense to me. AA's entire existence is based on strict anti-alcohol activism. It's not surprising their stance is zero-tolerance. But it's true that for some people it doesn't have to be that extreme. My dad drank a fifth of Scotch almost every day for years. One day he just stopped. For the rest of his life he would have a beer once in a while, with no problems.
Thank you! I've always marveled at what a hopeless message that was!
I'm glad you wrote this, even though you're going to open a can of worms. The idea of alcoholism as a binary state, total abstinence or unrestrained indulgence, is one of those things that is just accepted as unquestionable received wisdom, but is total bullshit. For anyone who doubts him -- I was the friend, and we have a very strong and healthy friendship, complete with permission to confront each other and say hard things. We don't have to always agree (and we don't) but we absolutely always hear each other out until the other feels fully heard. If there was a shadow of a doubt in my mind, I'd have played that card and really questioned him. Not only did I not, it didn't even occur to me to do so. Josh is simply not a drinker anymore, period.
Grateful to you.
I’ve had two ‘accidental’ mouthfuls of alcohol since quitting 6 years ago. A case of mistaken glass identity. The second was at a restaurant and the waitress put a cocktail in front of me, and I thought it was my virgin cocktail. My friends were more shocked than I was, acting like I was going to turn into a booze Hulk right in front of them. It’s an odd sensation. The metallic pinch of alcohol on your tongue. I do miss that. But it didn’t ignite some deep fire in me. If it did then my sobriety was still in-the-works and I needed another trip around the merry go round. That was 5 years ago. And non-alcoholic beers are pretty amazing now if you’re feeling fancy.
Many people view themselves as “victims” of alcoholism, a “persecutor,” that will always be after them. We can take personal responsibility over what we eat or drink. This time of Lent is one of those times when people prove that to themselves by giving up a vice. Interesting timing, Josh.
I remember the time I gave up Pepsi which I was addicted to. It was a caffeine addiction, multiple cans a day. I hated the headache withdrawal from going cold turkey, but I did it because I had made that decision like you. I know the waffling I have been through on cutting specific foods out for a time. So I know the difference. I had decided I didn’t want any more because it was harming me and I wanted better for myself. You can’t pussyfoot around with addictions. It has to be a complete decision.
I am precisely the same! Funny how that works, my brother. 😊 I remember it was the same for me, deciding was my power that day, my actual will, and I wouldn't ignore it or sooth it away again. It felt right in the moment, when I had made that last and final hangover a real doozy. I couldn't remember a single thing I'd done the evening before and even though I knew I blacked out on only 2 drinks, that it was years of abuse that had just left me in that state and primed for a blackout drunk with the mildest of imbibing. But after a year "In The Rooms" I decided I had more power than the 12 steps lead me to believe about myself and I quit AA after it left me with a hangover. Now I can have a single drink (13 years later) and have no interest in returning to my previous state.. it still feels like my will and no drink gets it away from me. I congratulate you. I think you've graduated.
I honestly completely agree with your thoughts about the "I'm powerless over alcohol/substance." Obviously the twelve step model has helped a lot of people and that's absolutely great and I will not begrudge them for that at all. But I did go to a twelve-step program once and it was just incredibly discouraging. It was all about "surrender" and admitting powerlessness (the word "surrender" seemed to be used over and over) and it just felt... wrong? I don't know. Like, "You won't be fixed until you turn your entire mentality over to us." I didn't go back because I knew it was just going to be a waste of my time.
Josh, I am in full agreement with you.
I've learned how to manage substances. Got off 15 years methadone maintenance, I know I'm not bullet proof, but I can handle alcohol and weed. My baseline is one of anxious melancholy, sometimes I need and appreciate a little something to take the edge off.
Same baseline:)
Growing up there were adults I knew that were former WW2 vets including my uncle. They drank daily, my uncle a six pack a night. But they got up and worked every day, didn’t abuse their family or others or other drama.
Good for you, Josh! Not everyone needs to abstain 100%. That’s a myth that constrains too many lives.
Oh my God dude, I did the same thing, just 4 days ago. 20 years and 9 months sober, I did that. I was at a bar with a dance floor, met some new acquaintances, having fun being around them. I just wanted to be a little more in the mix. Just two swallows of a beer. Keeping up the discipline gets tiring, but I don't want to go back into the addiction either. Maybe I just wanted to be a little reckless? But I'm also tired of going places and having to be on guard of the alcohol kryptonite.
FWIW, I stopped going to AA near the 14 year mark. After my second heart attack in two years. I figured that if I'm having heart attacks like that, then I must not be finding what I need in AA.
I've been heart attack free for 7 years.
The ultimate thing that seems to be working for me is something that Josh really doesn't like. I've gone trans. As crazy, ridiculous, and weird as it is, it's working for me. I love being a (fake) chick.
Damn, I'm sorry about the heart attacks!
If you're gonna be a fake chick, be a good one. If you don't have one, I recommend a human hair wig (lace front if you can afford it). If you can find some made out of Asian hair for cheap, that works a treat. I used to buy them from Patricia Fields in Manhattan.
Also, wet-set with either pin curls in bobby pins or rollers. These bitches today with their curling irons all walk around with exactly the same size-and-shape-of-the-curling-iron-barrel fake looking "sets." Do a real one; it's much prettier.
So glad you’ve gone past the point of alcohol addiction/dependence and can have a little bit!
I also found freedom from alcohol, and have moved from 100% abstinence to having a drink now and then.
For me, my relationship with alcohol had gotten bad enough that I finally learned that what I thought could “help” wasn’t helping at all. Not one bit.
Although, I didn’t go to AA to help me kick the bottle, I’m familiar with their philosophy and methods from a different 12-step program I participated in decades ago. I have mixed feelings regarding their approach—I do believe my own deliverance from alcohol abuse came when I let go of my delusion that I could use alcohol to “take the edge off” or that a couple drinks could make me feel “more like myself”. In that sense, I had to “surrender” and admit my powerlessness. Basically, I just got fed up with the lying to myself, telling myself I’ll just have that one beer after I picked up my kids from piano lessons, but later needing 2 more in order to try and keep my “happy mom” feeling.
I wasn’t fooling anyone but myself.
After a few years of tea-totaling, I made a new friend who happened to enjoy wine once in a while. Her enthusiasm for the wine itself, not the buzz, convinced me to partake. Over time , wine, beer and a few stronger things (acquired as ingredients for certain desserts) made their way back into my home. I rarely drink these days but I feel free to do so.
I’m celebrating your sip, Josh!
Good but watch out for the slippery slope. Another sip here and there. Becomes a habit. Then half a glass. Then a full one.
I am not saying it will play out that way for you, don't have even a guess as to the likelihood, maybe it's low.
But these are very trying times now, the world in upheaval, and most of us helpless to do anything about it. There is an extra amount of stress at this time.
Positive sign that you shared this, both because it means you're less vulnerable and because it's good to be bold enough to interrogate dogmas.
Judging by the comments I read after my post you are not doing something unsafe, so carry on. I have no idea what the numbers are for those who break the total abstinence rule, maybe most don't relapse.
Glad to hear it all went well and that you had a nice dinner out. I also had a period of alcoholism some years ago. I never went cold turkey but slowly decreased while making big changes to my life. Once I'd managed to remove certain triggers and then dealt a bit with the root cause, I found I could go days without a drink. Since then I've gone several months at a time without it and without it being difficult.
I used to do admin for a research project that involved people with alcoholism. The AA model seemed very prevalent. There just didn't seem to be the idea that a former alcoholic could ever be a "former alcoholic". It was a badge for life. Maybe for those people working with our project, that was the case, but it clearly isn't the case for all.
Some people like to identify as things, such as "an alcoholic." It may come ftom wanting to get special treatment or sympathy points.
If someone decides to work on themselves, they may lessen the triggers and no longer get that sympathy. In fact, they can lose aquaintences who enjoy playing the role of savior or fellow victim of alchoholism.
Josh isn't like that. But many people are, I think.