Josh, a George K. Simon reference! He's wonderful. I read two of his books (In Sheep's Clothing and Character Disturbance) years ago when I was trying to understand the puzzle and misery of what had been happening (and would keep happening for years more) in my life. I finally realized I wasn't crazy, imagining things.
Good question. I found the In Sheep's Clothing (and Character Disturbance) very easy to read, not burdensome, because it put a finger on so much pain that I had been experiencing. It felt like the author had been following me around for years and knew what I had endured and suffered. I wasn't crazy.
Neither of the books are that long. I'd recommend them. :)
This is closely related. I just ran across it today. I strongly suggest that everyone who’s concerned with female narcissism (which would include everyone who’s paying attention) read this, by Dr. Hannah Spiers:
Ah yes — the classic “I’m worried about you” drive-by.
Pathologize dissent, assign hidden rage, diagnose pain, then exit on a cloud of faux concern. It’s a well-worn maneuver: frame disagreement as illness so you never have to engage the argument.
Anger at manipulation isn’t dysfunction, it’s detection. And joylessness is often just what honesty looks like to people who require soothing narratives. I despise passive-aggressive persons, my hackles raise at the sound of them.
It’s what tells you a boundary’s been crossed, a lie’s been told, or something predatory is trying to pass itself off as “concern.” The problem isn’t anger, it’s when people are taught to suppress it so manipulation goes unchallenged.
Used properly, anger isn’t destructive. It’s clarifying.
On target, Josh. It’s bullet proof which makes it so hard to defend against.
I read an article in circa 1980 in the NYT’s Sunday magazine about borderline sociopathic or psychopathic behavior. I was just hitting 25. It fit so well I decided to never let my mother attack me in her cleverly camouflaged way. I had the strength to muscle through it. I gave her what I thought was the appropriate love as her child, but with a wife and daughter I put before her. I thought it had worked (and I still believe it did) but when my father died and she was in the process of dying herself (of course she outlived him by three months (for the win!)), I visited him in his final hours and I went to see my mother (on the same floor of the hospital), my sisters interrupted me and said my mother didn’t want to see me. I walked away. But in a way, she still won. It’s a sad and painful power mothers can use.
I live in a world where men love their mothers. I have no idea what that feels like. But if it’s anyway like the way I feel toward my father, I feel cheated. Not terribly cheated, just cheated in a way I’ll never really understand in the life.
She must feel so chuffed about schooling you and trying to console you. What a bigger, more caring person she is. I’ll bet she sleeps well at night as many abusers and abuser apologist do with their sanctimony as sleep aids.
Your mention of pathologizing and exaggerating anger in others reminded me of the way the left-leaning Canadian media treats the federal Conservative Party leader. They invariably refer to his anger and his appeal to angry people, completely mischaracterizing his clear-eyed opposition to the stupid and damaging policies of the Trudeau and now Carney governments. I guess our mainstream media is mostly feminized and not just ideologically captured.
I’d even say that being critical is first step for being happy and aligned with things that bring meaning to life, because one avoids maladaptive ideas, antisocial people, wasting time on crap and most important of all, being trapped in relativism.
Hear hear! I've been noticing... that the "Be Kind" (TM) brigade brands criticism as uncivil, while flinging ad hominems with abandon. Another inversion.
Yes. My ex husband was a genius in covert narcissism and covert aggression. He would play this so well that I often screamed at him in anger. And then he would look at me and declare I had anger management issues.
He would also claim I was just sad and negative all the time. I literally was driven to a form of madness. I only now am slowly recovering.
Can we all collect examples and anecdotes? I think all these will help to identify the covert aggression and to avoid stepping on their traps.
Reminds me of the time my dog and I almost got run over in the crosswalk. I screamed “this is a fucking crosswalk,” and the woman driver looked at me pathetically and said, “I hope you have a better day,” with the clear implication that *I* was the one in the wrong. Not “sorry.” Not “oops I didn’t see you.” Ugh.
The last three times I had to honk at someone *because they didn't see me and were about to kill us both* they screamed fuck you at me and gave me the bird.
If I catch myself DOING that covert-aggressive telling off (and I will confess, I have), the best thing I can say to check my behavior before I hit "Send" is "Why am I writing this? Am I writing it for ME? Or am I writing it for (in the best interests of, to help - really), the author I'm addressing?
Because the truth is, if I really want to do it for THEM, for THEIR welfare, I'd message them. I wouldn't type it in a Comments section in "Online Public Square".
Now, if I want to argue with them and do this for ME, I should just argue straight up. Even insulting them - straight forward. Give them a chance to shoot back. Not lie about my concern for their welfare.
Anyone else have a good Check on your soul, to prevent you from falling into the cover-aggressive Jibe / tell-off, "So there!, Put down?
So many of my friend's mother's were like this. ( They were all born in the 40-50's) When we talk about them it's like we all had the same mother. I wonder if women were always so f*cked up or was it that generation for some reason? It's like each generation got worse exponentially.
Josh, a George K. Simon reference! He's wonderful. I read two of his books (In Sheep's Clothing and Character Disturbance) years ago when I was trying to understand the puzzle and misery of what had been happening (and would keep happening for years more) in my life. I finally realized I wasn't crazy, imagining things.
Worth reading or, like many psychology books, one good concept stretched to 300 pages?
Good question. I found the In Sheep's Clothing (and Character Disturbance) very easy to read, not burdensome, because it put a finger on so much pain that I had been experiencing. It felt like the author had been following me around for years and knew what I had endured and suffered. I wasn't crazy.
Neither of the books are that long. I'd recommend them. :)
This is closely related. I just ran across it today. I strongly suggest that everyone who’s concerned with female narcissism (which would include everyone who’s paying attention) read this, by Dr. Hannah Spiers:
https://hannahspier.substack.com/p/the-contemporary-expression-of-female
Especially the part about mothers diagnosing neurodivergence in kids is brilliant
Ah yes — the classic “I’m worried about you” drive-by.
Pathologize dissent, assign hidden rage, diagnose pain, then exit on a cloud of faux concern. It’s a well-worn maneuver: frame disagreement as illness so you never have to engage the argument.
Anger at manipulation isn’t dysfunction, it’s detection. And joylessness is often just what honesty looks like to people who require soothing narratives. I despise passive-aggressive persons, my hackles raise at the sound of them.
Yup anger is useful emotion
Exactly. Anger is information.
It’s what tells you a boundary’s been crossed, a lie’s been told, or something predatory is trying to pass itself off as “concern.” The problem isn’t anger, it’s when people are taught to suppress it so manipulation goes unchallenged.
Used properly, anger isn’t destructive. It’s clarifying.
On target, Josh. It’s bullet proof which makes it so hard to defend against.
I read an article in circa 1980 in the NYT’s Sunday magazine about borderline sociopathic or psychopathic behavior. I was just hitting 25. It fit so well I decided to never let my mother attack me in her cleverly camouflaged way. I had the strength to muscle through it. I gave her what I thought was the appropriate love as her child, but with a wife and daughter I put before her. I thought it had worked (and I still believe it did) but when my father died and she was in the process of dying herself (of course she outlived him by three months (for the win!)), I visited him in his final hours and I went to see my mother (on the same floor of the hospital), my sisters interrupted me and said my mother didn’t want to see me. I walked away. But in a way, she still won. It’s a sad and painful power mothers can use.
I live in a world where men love their mothers. I have no idea what that feels like. But if it’s anyway like the way I feel toward my father, I feel cheated. Not terribly cheated, just cheated in a way I’ll never really understand in the life.
She must feel so chuffed about schooling you and trying to console you. What a bigger, more caring person she is. I’ll bet she sleeps well at night as many abusers and abuser apologist do with their sanctimony as sleep aids.
You nailed it Josh.
Actually, that person is male.
It’s a Romanian male name.
“Take care!” It’s the secular “I’ll pray for you” chaser after a shot of tut-tutting sermonette from your viperous Aunt Carolyn.
Or my favorite closer after hurling invective in a comment section: "Peace, out!"
Your mention of pathologizing and exaggerating anger in others reminded me of the way the left-leaning Canadian media treats the federal Conservative Party leader. They invariably refer to his anger and his appeal to angry people, completely mischaracterizing his clear-eyed opposition to the stupid and damaging policies of the Trudeau and now Carney governments. I guess our mainstream media is mostly feminized and not just ideologically captured.
They almost always throw in a couple dashes of condescension at the end, just to bring it all together..
Yeah, that falls under covert demeaning. Your stack is not at all negative or unhappy. And I have been following you for quite some time now, Josh.
He reframes "being critical" as "being unhappy" for which he feels oh such pity for you. Nicely spotted.
I’d even say that being critical is first step for being happy and aligned with things that bring meaning to life, because one avoids maladaptive ideas, antisocial people, wasting time on crap and most important of all, being trapped in relativism.
Hear hear! I've been noticing... that the "Be Kind" (TM) brigade brands criticism as uncivil, while flinging ad hominems with abandon. Another inversion.
Shabby, that. My Dad's example of responding to that kind of stuff was: "Who asked you?"
The cousin does not exist. I do know that much.
Yes. My ex husband was a genius in covert narcissism and covert aggression. He would play this so well that I often screamed at him in anger. And then he would look at me and declare I had anger management issues.
He would also claim I was just sad and negative all the time. I literally was driven to a form of madness. I only now am slowly recovering.
Can we all collect examples and anecdotes? I think all these will help to identify the covert aggression and to avoid stepping on their traps.
Please do. I'd really appreciate any you collect and can save for me for a longer article. You know I know just exactly what this felt like for you.
I have a metric f*ckton of these I can share with you.
Nice. Share away if you like. Maybe we could do a stream about it.
Careful, I’ll take you up on the offer! I’ll ping you after Christmas. 🎄 😉
Please do!
Keep healing!
Textbook. Absolutely textbook. They push and push until you snap- rage, sadness,tears, etc. and then say "OMG, lol, what is WRONG with you?"
"angriness". 'Nuff said.
Reminds me of the time my dog and I almost got run over in the crosswalk. I screamed “this is a fucking crosswalk,” and the woman driver looked at me pathetically and said, “I hope you have a better day,” with the clear implication that *I* was the one in the wrong. Not “sorry.” Not “oops I didn’t see you.” Ugh.
EVERYTHING is Cluster B these days.
The last three times I had to honk at someone *because they didn't see me and were about to kill us both* they screamed fuck you at me and gave me the bird.
If I catch myself DOING that covert-aggressive telling off (and I will confess, I have), the best thing I can say to check my behavior before I hit "Send" is "Why am I writing this? Am I writing it for ME? Or am I writing it for (in the best interests of, to help - really), the author I'm addressing?
Because the truth is, if I really want to do it for THEM, for THEIR welfare, I'd message them. I wouldn't type it in a Comments section in "Online Public Square".
Now, if I want to argue with them and do this for ME, I should just argue straight up. Even insulting them - straight forward. Give them a chance to shoot back. Not lie about my concern for their welfare.
Anyone else have a good Check on your soul, to prevent you from falling into the cover-aggressive Jibe / tell-off, "So there!, Put down?
Yeah, just so. The adult way.
I don't have a check but I came across a useful standard reply to emails or posts like it:
--------------------------
i'm not reading all that.
i'm happy for u tho
or sorry that happened.
Lol, I can't tell if this is sarcasm or actually what people use :)
So many of my friend's mother's were like this. ( They were all born in the 40-50's) When we talk about them it's like we all had the same mother. I wonder if women were always so f*cked up or was it that generation for some reason? It's like each generation got worse exponentially.