Adult conversation is largely impossible in the United States. We are so soaked in the idea that, when we speak, we speak “as liberals” or “as conservatives,” that we have forgotten what a warped way to be and live this really is. Disaffected Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
May 2, 2023·edited May 2, 2023Liked by Josh Slocum
I feel like this is especially true in online interactions, but in my IRL social life it rarely manifests. Online, we're in broad social spaces, like Twitter, or in closed communities, but in either case, there's a logo and a name and we know nothing else about the person. But they're also disposable and to a degree, we treat them like a windmill to tilt at. They're just a jousting partner, so the quicker we both show our cards and get our knives out the better - if you're out on the prowl for conflict, which is what a lot of folks are on something like Twitter for in the first place.
IRL, that person isn't necessarily just some ship passing in the night; that's a neighbor, or a family member, or the person in the cubicle next to you. You have a much higher chance of being invested in keeping cordial relations, which means that difficult topics are either avoided or talked about at something other than full volume. I've honestly had some of the most revealing political discussions with one of my closest work friends. But that required trust and an investment in our relationship - that we would mutually give each other the benefit of the doubt and listen as well as repeat slogans at each other. The scaffolding of genuine affection for one another also allows you to retreat when its obvious that POVs are not reconcilable.
Perhaps this is just some Midwestern naivete on my part - but this sort of "probe for weakness" social interaction hasn't infected my meatspace (yet). But Josh is in a Liberal Ground Zero in Vermont (correct?), so perhaps the situation on the ground there is far more heated.
In a sane world, and in sane parts of the country, you are correct.
But where I am in liberal land, I am correct. Yes, this does happen in real life, in person, physically, in the real world. Yes. I am saying that what you experience as something that happens only online does happen in real life the very same way it happens online, where I am.
Such an important point and one I think of all the time. I know that my interpretation of what is happening does not fit neatly at all into one of the two boxes we are allowed to check. But I have to admit that, emotionally and when I'm impatient, the urge to just label myself or others rears it head. It is amazing how well these mind games can work.
As a questioning/disagreeable resident of a very far left city, I find that any tiny bit of disagreement with the Ideoligical Package gets a person thrown into the Right Wing Nazi pile, no matter how many years we've known each other. I have faded out of pretty much all social interactions besides my job.
Whether online or IRL, there is a certain amount of "posturing" that contributes to a person's opinion. When the expressed viewpoint seems "politically correct" or woke or good ol' virtue signaling, I think too many of these people choose their opinion based on how it will make them appear to others. The particular issue is secondary and just a vehicle to establish their creds as some sort of intellectual. The payoff is years later when I meet up with such a person and remind him/her of their position way back when. Invariably they have nothing to say about it. The passion is gone, their point is forgotten, and the nasty things they may have said in rebuttal to my view is oddly forgotten.
As a former woke ideologue, ( I got into Leftism because of feminism and I was against the Iraq wars), I have moved further to the right. I have been told that I am "brainwashed", and need to "think for myself", i.e.: "Think as WE TELL YOU TO, OR ELSE". It's especially awful to deal with this in my relationship with my spouse, as it leads to Loud and vicious conflicts. I find that there is no possibility of rational discussion, as the Trump Derangement Syndrome goes into full blast, and I am shouted over in increasingly hysterical decibels and I have to end it by screaming at him to STFU. The undercurrent of animosity in my home is a real burden.
I so agree and I am guilty sometimes of doing this very thing. I have a very liberal friend who can see no good in any Republican office holder or any position taken by any conservative person. She posted a meme about the censorship of books in schools that “only Christian conservatives” are doing. I, who she well knows is against wholesale censorship but believes in age appropriate content, pointed out that graphic depictions of sex acts did not belong in a school library but instead could be obtained in a public library. She came back with “What schools have you seen this in? This is not happening.” As mainstream media never reports on these instances, there is no way I could show her examples as they would all be from “conservative” sources which she would out of hand dismiss. It is extremely hard to have an in depth conversation about substantive issues when “proof” is needed but that “proof” is not to be found from “trusted” sources.
This is true, because once the flag color has been established, the persons on either side, tend to ignore or minimize the other person's points.
Lefties label MAGA Trump supporters as not worthy of conversation.
Those on the right view lefties as not informed enough to form a valid opinion.
However, on most issues, more people have common ground than not. Ask Anheuser-Busch. They'll be quick to tell you about that.
The furthest extremes of either side are always the loudest, drowning out most of the people in the middle. Don't misunderstand, there are very significant differences between the two sides, but open dialog is the only way that people learn.
I wish I believed you were right, but I'm afraid I don't. I really do believe, honestly and sincerely, that left people today *actually do not* know what they're defending.
Totally agree. I think we ‘can’ talk like this though. You just did. I do. There are more like us and I think our numbers are growing. I think the grownups are entering the room finally.
I feel like this is especially true in online interactions, but in my IRL social life it rarely manifests. Online, we're in broad social spaces, like Twitter, or in closed communities, but in either case, there's a logo and a name and we know nothing else about the person. But they're also disposable and to a degree, we treat them like a windmill to tilt at. They're just a jousting partner, so the quicker we both show our cards and get our knives out the better - if you're out on the prowl for conflict, which is what a lot of folks are on something like Twitter for in the first place.
IRL, that person isn't necessarily just some ship passing in the night; that's a neighbor, or a family member, or the person in the cubicle next to you. You have a much higher chance of being invested in keeping cordial relations, which means that difficult topics are either avoided or talked about at something other than full volume. I've honestly had some of the most revealing political discussions with one of my closest work friends. But that required trust and an investment in our relationship - that we would mutually give each other the benefit of the doubt and listen as well as repeat slogans at each other. The scaffolding of genuine affection for one another also allows you to retreat when its obvious that POVs are not reconcilable.
Perhaps this is just some Midwestern naivete on my part - but this sort of "probe for weakness" social interaction hasn't infected my meatspace (yet). But Josh is in a Liberal Ground Zero in Vermont (correct?), so perhaps the situation on the ground there is far more heated.
In a sane world, and in sane parts of the country, you are correct.
But where I am in liberal land, I am correct. Yes, this does happen in real life, in person, physically, in the real world. Yes. I am saying that what you experience as something that happens only online does happen in real life the very same way it happens online, where I am.
This is why I rarely leave the house.
Very sorry to hear that. I'll send you the Zillow listing the next time a house goes up for sale in my subdivision.
Such an important point and one I think of all the time. I know that my interpretation of what is happening does not fit neatly at all into one of the two boxes we are allowed to check. But I have to admit that, emotionally and when I'm impatient, the urge to just label myself or others rears it head. It is amazing how well these mind games can work.
As a questioning/disagreeable resident of a very far left city, I find that any tiny bit of disagreement with the Ideoligical Package gets a person thrown into the Right Wing Nazi pile, no matter how many years we've known each other. I have faded out of pretty much all social interactions besides my job.
Whether online or IRL, there is a certain amount of "posturing" that contributes to a person's opinion. When the expressed viewpoint seems "politically correct" or woke or good ol' virtue signaling, I think too many of these people choose their opinion based on how it will make them appear to others. The particular issue is secondary and just a vehicle to establish their creds as some sort of intellectual. The payoff is years later when I meet up with such a person and remind him/her of their position way back when. Invariably they have nothing to say about it. The passion is gone, their point is forgotten, and the nasty things they may have said in rebuttal to my view is oddly forgotten.
As a former woke ideologue, ( I got into Leftism because of feminism and I was against the Iraq wars), I have moved further to the right. I have been told that I am "brainwashed", and need to "think for myself", i.e.: "Think as WE TELL YOU TO, OR ELSE". It's especially awful to deal with this in my relationship with my spouse, as it leads to Loud and vicious conflicts. I find that there is no possibility of rational discussion, as the Trump Derangement Syndrome goes into full blast, and I am shouted over in increasingly hysterical decibels and I have to end it by screaming at him to STFU. The undercurrent of animosity in my home is a real burden.
I so agree and I am guilty sometimes of doing this very thing. I have a very liberal friend who can see no good in any Republican office holder or any position taken by any conservative person. She posted a meme about the censorship of books in schools that “only Christian conservatives” are doing. I, who she well knows is against wholesale censorship but believes in age appropriate content, pointed out that graphic depictions of sex acts did not belong in a school library but instead could be obtained in a public library. She came back with “What schools have you seen this in? This is not happening.” As mainstream media never reports on these instances, there is no way I could show her examples as they would all be from “conservative” sources which she would out of hand dismiss. It is extremely hard to have an in depth conversation about substantive issues when “proof” is needed but that “proof” is not to be found from “trusted” sources.
I no longer have "friends" like that. I don't allow them in my life.
This is true, because once the flag color has been established, the persons on either side, tend to ignore or minimize the other person's points.
Lefties label MAGA Trump supporters as not worthy of conversation.
Those on the right view lefties as not informed enough to form a valid opinion.
However, on most issues, more people have common ground than not. Ask Anheuser-Busch. They'll be quick to tell you about that.
The furthest extremes of either side are always the loudest, drowning out most of the people in the middle. Don't misunderstand, there are very significant differences between the two sides, but open dialog is the only way that people learn.
I wish I believed you were right, but I'm afraid I don't. I really do believe, honestly and sincerely, that left people today *actually do not* know what they're defending.
I'm afraid I don't think it's symmetrical.
Totally agree. I think we ‘can’ talk like this though. You just did. I do. There are more like us and I think our numbers are growing. I think the grownups are entering the room finally.
If "we" "could" talk through this, I wouldn't have written this.
The "we" I'm referring to is the general public. Not you and me. Not me and my paid subscribers.
Sigh.